Crowdsourcing Site specifically for game developers?

[Essy]

Consider a psuedo-open source project on Github where anyone could make a pull request but only the owners can actually confirm it.
Take that idea and apply it to the website. Instead of being able to see source code progress reports would be made.
So you can then see a sort of developer timestamp.
[Minimum Viable Product] -> [Did This] -> [Did That]
At this point you can actually record these logs and maybe prefer they come with a screenshot. Then you can essentially list how 'alive' the project is based on how complete it was filled out.

Maybe even have a development history page that is public.

This benefits the backer by allowing them to know that their money is being used or that a project is worth backing.
This also benefits the developer as it provides a motivation for some amount of progress in a given time frame, it also opens up opportunities for recruitment by allowing potential team members to be able to catch up with the 'general idea' of what has been done with the product and some guarantee that the project is actually worth their time due to it's aliveness.

 

[Xyphien]

@Macro I've been watching these changes in the forum for long enough now. Yeah, it was a bit more calm and laid back when ppl left in February but still kinda normal. The forum is changing right now and don't know whether i like it or not. Wish we could get that funny time and activity back though...

@Xyphien is it part of rmmv website then or not ? I mean if it allows all kind of games even board games and stuff if it even still makes sense...? It would look kinda weird, wouldn't it ?

Do you guys still care about RMMV though? Seems like all the effort is going into the crowdfunding site lately. :( I don't know I just get the feeling RMMV is taking a backseat because we have problems here like editing issues, mood setting being messed up, RT pack not being released after an entire day, etc. Kind of demotivating me to be honest that this Crowdfunding thing is getting so much priority when RMMV is barely off the ground.

https://rpgmakermv.co/threads/questions-and-concerns-with-the-future-of-the-site.2837/ here you go :) I tried to answer these as best as I could, as well as make it aware to everyone about everything going on. I hope this helps.

 

[PAC918]

I like the idea and have thought about doing something like this myself. After having worked in the 'industry' a bit and seeing several indie teams form and branch out I've become really interested in what I like to call "the development of the development" haha. Of course, I'm in the same boat as some others here as well...I've been burned/scammed via Kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms but that's life, honestly. The internet is a dangerous place.

Let me offer some ideas that I and some mates have for this type of project;

• You can weed out some potential failures early on by requiring either an actual domain for their team, game or company. Perhaps even some registration or LLC confirmation. This shows they are at least somewhat serious about their projects.
• Give-backs! As backers we all love the rewards at the various backing levels but putting a simple #% of total funded from projects into a "Give-back" account which would then be used by the account owner to help fund other projects within the site. Fail-safe option for this if they fail to use any of the "Give-back" money in a predetermined time frame would be to take all the money and divide it evenly across some number of top-rated or some other metric measurement projects.
• Along with the above feature you could also designate another small portion of funds to be split across weekly/monthly promo or contests that puts funds towards the projects that win those events.
• Indie devs and indie teams are awesome! However, we expect some of the money that's asked for will be for commissions and other outsourced works. Set up an area for individuals or teams to be available for these jobs. Basically, add a Fiverr.com function to the site! (Plus you can make money off both aspects!

There are a few more good ones but I don't have the written list with me currently. If something doesn't make sense or if you need some further explanation just ask. Or PM me.

 

[samorious]

@Macro Yes, I do still care about RMMV, I actually hope/think that it is just temporary. After the crowdfunding website is online I hope things will return to normal again. It would be a shame if RMMV is be left behind.

@Cunechan I actually thought it would be a part of RMMV, don't know how that is going to evolve now. Would be nice if it was just focuussing on RMMV instead of gaming in general. I guess we'll see!

EDIT: Woops sorry, I see I've been a bit late with my comment XD

 

[Xilefian]

I always presumed that this idea is a separate website (that's the impression I got). No idea why it's in the MV Discussion section. Perhaps that confused some people as to the nature of this idea.


Some criticism I have of what's been discussed here; $100 to $300 is not enough for any project worth going into full production. That is some real severe undervaluing. I have been paid more than that for MV Plugins that I've written in about 6 hours.

$3,000 is still very low for a complete game - even with RPG Maker. You can probably stretch $3,000 across 2 months of solid work, which is just enough time to get a design document and script finalised, not a complete project.

$30,000 sounds like a 1 and a half year development sprint for a single developer with RPG Maker MV. That's doing everything on your own; audio, graphics, design & doc, script, JS, mapping, deployment, marketing, support.

If I was doing a project on my own and going for crowdfunding I'd be aiming at the $30k mark after a few months of dry-development and prep-work for the funding campaign (as well as planning and feasibility analysis).


It also sounds like this whole idea has come out of trying to protect donators from getting burned by failed projects, rather than helping new projects start off. What's going to convince me to not use Kickstarter?

 

[samorious]

I always presumed that this idea is a separate website (that's the impression I got). No idea why it's in the MV Discussion section. Perhaps that confused some people as to the nature of this idea.


Some criticism I have of what's been discussed here; $100 to $300 is not enough for any project worth going into full production. That is some real severe undervaluing. I have been paid more than that for MV Plugins that I've written in about 6 hours.

$3,000 is still very low for a complete game - even with RPG Maker. You can probably stretch $3,000 across 2 months of solid work, which is just enough time to get a design document and script finalised, not a complete project.

$30,000 sounds like a 1 and a half year development sprint for a single developer with RPG Maker MV. That's doing everything on your own; audio, graphics, design & doc, script, JS, mapping, deployment, marketing, support.

If I was doing a project on my own and going for crowdfunding I'd be aiming at the $30k mark after a few months of dry-development and prep-work for the funding campaign (as well as planning and feasibility analysis).


It also sounds like this whole idea has come out of trying to protect donators from getting burned by failed projects, rather than helping new projects start off. What's going to convince me to not use Kickstarter?

If you are doing solo projects I don't see the need of having 30k to develop a game. After all I don't think you need to calculate your payment in hours whatsoever. Making games is an investment. The only thing you can hope for is that, by selling the game you will earn this investment back. I see crowdfunding as the ability to pay for the software you need etc. Not for the hours of work you put in. I hope you understand this point of view :-)

Cheers,
Samorious

 

[Xilefian]

If you are doing solo projects I don't see the need of having 30k to develop a game. After all I don't think you need to calculate your payment in hours whatsoever. Making games is an investment. The only thing you can hope for is that, by selling the game you will earn this investment back. I see crowdfunding as the ability to pay for the software you need etc. Not for the hours of work you put in. I hope you understand this point of view :-)

Cheers,
Samorious

I understand and I somewhat agree, but I can imagine some people going solo with no income who need to pay their rent and travel to expos and meet up with investors. When I say hours of work, I'm not referring to a salary but the amount of work required to complete tasks and how that builds up to larger costs.

I'd argue that what I've just described could be irresponsible use of funds - I have the personal opinion that if you're on your own then you should be backed by your own money, not the money of others - but I'd lump that in the inclusion of asking for $300 to pay for software needs.

I don't think I'll fund towards a $3,000 project as I'll look at it and feel that it is undervalued and I'd have doubts about how committed the developer is. It could come across as if they're playing it safe as to not anger too many people if the project never gets delivered.

 

[samorious]

@Xilefian I can also agree on the part where someone needs to pay the rent XD although in my opinion that should not be a reason to crowdfund, so other people can pay your life so you can create a game. For me it just sounds a bit wrong.

About the money that is needed, I do actually understand why someone would only want 3k or less. First one, if someone is new in the branch of indie dev it would indeed be playing safe. Better that then wasting 10k if something does go wrong. Also, I personally wouldn't be able to anything with 10k atm. It's just too much, may sound wierd but its true.
Second one, I am also going to crowdfund a small project, a "small" one. For that I only need about 100 euro, for some software and licenses. Why am I not asking more money? Because I actually really enjoy making it. It is a way of learning new things. I don't need a lot of money to make, only to release it I would need some.
If you think different tell me :-)

Cheers,
samorious

 

[Cunechan]

I have to admit that I'd feel super rich if I reach 100€ XD But that might just be me since I'm still a kid and don't know too much about money(not like I never bought anything on my own but all these adult and business thingies with money, you know?). Still, for this amount of money, which is a lot, atleast for me, I'd finally make this HM game with costum graphics and stuff and really invest more time in it then I frequently do in my other project. It's somewhat about motivation and the knowledge that people care about what you're doing and what you're tributing your time to. If people don't care about the project I'm making it's harder to hang on and really do this.

I think it doesn't really matter how much money one wants, everyone has his own opinion on this. It all depends on a lot of things which are barely discussibe or something like that XD I mean it depends on the game length, feautures, what has to be done and extra costs on what has to be done (that isn't well explained but meh) First we need to see where the site goes and how many people visit it. Gotta admit that I'm pretty excited about this whole crowdfunding thing~

 

[samorious]

@Cunechan Hahaha, well yeah. a 100 euro is some money. But think of it, Copyrights needed= 40euro, getting acces to android market dev= 25 euro, registering the company so we can legally sell it=50euro hosting a website do put it on= 100 euro a year. (we also invest our own money)It doesn't seem that much but a 100 euro is gone in a second if you don't pay attention XD.

You'll get to know more about money when you'll turn 18 :p insurances etc. its horrible.

 

[Xilefian]

When you do full game development with a small staff around you, €100 is basically breakfast for everyone.

At an entry-level job in a studio each employee would earn about €1 900 a month before taxes. A month's work for a 3D artist would be modelling a single character. For a concept artist it would be 4 or 5 static pieces (if they're good with static pieces, they could churn out 2 modular iterations a week). Character artwork could take half a month.

A programmer should be able to complete a working prototype of game design concepts in a month. If they're doing an engine from scratch, it should be rendering graphics after a month.

Mappers should orange-out the majority of the playable area in the month (In RPG Maker, this means have every single map the player can visited blocked out).

That's how I value each of these assets. I'd pay up to €1 900 for a good 3D model that's fully rigged and textured. €1 900 for an RPG Maker MV game where you can walk from start to finish without any special graphics or systems or dialogue.

 

[Cunechan]

@Cunechan Hahaha, well yeah. a 100 euro is some money. But think of it, Copyrights needed= 40euro, getting acces to android market dev= 25 euro, registering the company so we can legally sell it=50euro hosting a website do put it on= 100 euro a year. (we also invest our own money)It doesn't seem that much but a 100 euro is gone in a second if you don't pay attention XD.

You'll get to know more about money when you'll turn 18 :p insurances etc. its horrible.

. Money is gone so fast... Actually I even turn 16 soon but don't want to. Never thought there were so many things to do before releasing a commercial game (and so many people to pay and so much) Feels like I'm too innocent young for this.

 

[Essy]

@Cunechan Hahaha, well yeah. a 100 euro is some money. But think of it, Copyrights needed= 40euro, getting acces to android market dev= 25 euro, registering the company so we can legally sell it=50euro hosting a website do put it on= 100 euro a year. (we also invest our own money)It doesn't seem that much but a 100 euro is gone in a second if you don't pay attention XD.

You'll get to know more about money when you'll turn 18 :p insurances etc. its horrible.

Not to be 'that guy', but registering your company and the google play store should be one time fees. So that's a veeeery minor cost.
And you could just host your website for free on Google Appengine. If a situation were to arise in which you would have to pay for appengine, then your product is probably already generating more than enough revenue to cover it.
So for your 'first game' including copyright, you would have a cost of 115 euro.
For future products it would just be 40.

And even then you don't 'have' to put on copyright. Which isn't a big deal when you are 'starting.' If you don't have to protect it you can just use creative commons to uphold the spirit of it.

A copyright is only worth as much as it is protecting.
Even then it only protects against domestic competition.

You don't even need a company to put things on the playstore.
The startup costs here should actually just be 25, by the time anything else is important you are already generating revenue.

Your initial 'company' can be informal.

From here, all funding generated can go to the product.

"But how would I protect my project from being stolen and crowd-sourced separately by one of my employees!?"
A better question would be, how did you get to this state to begin with that a 'cheap knock-off' by one of your former team members is immediately more popular with your clientele than your product is. This presents both an issue with quality of product and trust between team members.

And even if you want that small bit of safe state of mind you can drop the 40 euros raising startup costs to.. 65? Not much.

A company is 'optional' for copyright registrations.

In fact.. this is probably the one case where a Non-Compete Agreement would actually be upheld in court. Just do one of those instead.


A startup is usually done with the intention of everyone pitching in, hoping that it will grow.
You cannot assume that everyone in your startup is immediately being paid a full salary, if they're paid 'at all.'

 

[HotfireLegend]

When you do full game development with a small staff around you, €100 is basically breakfast for everyone.

At an entry-level job in a studio each employee would earn about €1 900 a month before taxes. A month's work for a 3D artist would be modelling a single character. For a concept artist it would be 4 or 5 static pieces (if they're good with static pieces, they could churn out 2 modular iterations a week). Character artwork could take half a month.

A programmer should be able to complete a working prototype of game design concepts in a month. If they're doing an engine from scratch, it should be rendering graphics after a month.

Mappers should orange-out the majority of the playable area in the month (In RPG Maker, this means have every single map the player can visited blocked out).

That's how I value each of these assets. I'd pay up to €1 900 for a good 3D model that's fully rigged and textured. €1 900 for an RPG Maker MV game where you can walk from start to finish without any special graphics or systems or dialogue.

Where seems to be quite a lot of generalization here. Blocking out every single map the player can visit? What's the point of that? Unless you're making the area for the eventer but even then, stuff would probably have to be changed around in later stages of dev. If you're a single-person dev, you're way better off just making the maps as you go along. It'd be easy to "block out" (I am assuming this means drawing the borders but again I do not see the point in that) a small-scale game in a month, but a 30-hour rpg? No way - let alone actually adding the details!

How complex would that "single character" be? I can hardly imagine a whole month to make something like Rayman's body. For someone making Lara Croft in the new games? Perhaps so.

A working ptototype of what game design concepts, exactly? If we're talking Fallout-scale, I doubt a programmer could do lockpicking, crafting, shooting, etc all in one month. Graphics would obviously be the priority, but most game dev companies don't use their own engines! They use something like Unity which already has something like this modelled for them. Even if we're talking Bethesda with their own engine, the engine has already been made.

You could get away with about $500 on a self-made indie game, with an external artist for 2D images. A programmer's fees totally depends on how much/what you want made and the engine you're using. If you can do it yourself, then go ahead. If you're working with 3D though, we are comparing apples and oranges so it is poinltles to say a 3D artist can do stuff for $500 unless we actually specify scale and complexity.
2D Character art wouldn't take a month.

I have a feeling that you're trying to apply AAA-level scales to indie games which are much smaller in both scale and expectation. It's a bit too generalized. But of course, I have no idea what you're basing these timescales off on.

 

[Xilefian]

A startup is usually done with the intention of everyone pitching in, hoping that it will grow.
You cannot assume that everyone in your startup is immediately being paid a full salary, if they're paid 'at all.'

Every single start-up I've been part of has paid me a full salary

 

[samorious]

@Essy it is indeed true what you are saying, btw no one is getting paid initially. Th company is together with a friend and we do this because it is our passion, later on we will see if we actually gain money. On the part of registering a company, here in the Netherlands it is very strict. If we make revenue without it having registered we are obliged to pay 40% taxes on it, otherwise it is just 21%. That is our motivation behind getting the company registered XD
[doublepost=1458324846,1458324810][/doublepost]

. Money is gone so fast... Actually I even turn 16 soon but don't want to. Never thought there were so many things to do before releasing a commercial game (and so many people to pay and so much) Feels like I'm too innocent young for this.

You'll be able to handle it, im sure :-)
[doublepost=1458324924][/doublepost]

Every single start-up I've been part of has paid me a full salary

But what sort of company is that?

 

[Xilefian]

But what sort of company is that?

Small game studios and even smaller software companies. All came from experienced software development backgrounds, so it wasn't rookies going at it with zero background experience. Although some of them were first-time game developers

2 of them did kickstarters, I wasn't part of one kickstarter (had started before I was hired) and the 2nd one I was fully involved in the kickstarter as senior management. It was very successful, whereas the one I had no involvement in fell flat on its face (my experience from witnessing that helped an awful lot with the kickstarter I did).

Edit: @HotfireLegend blocking out a map will give you production time estimations. Making maps as you go is great if you have all the time in the world, but it will do no favours for deadlines. Even on RPG Maker people on a deadline will slap all the maps required for a town, get the events down and then do a second pass for beautifying and getting custom assets defined.

The faster you have a prototype the better. Also, things like fallout lockpicking are not core systems, they're mini events. A core system in fallout would be VATS which is something you can do in a day with most engines. Even lockpicking you can implement in half a day, it really is not complicated.

As for 3D models, I was imagining something of PS2 era fidelity. Even an amateur 3D modeller can scrub up a character model from concept poses in a day, it's the rigging, texture work and tweaking that consumes the most time, and a lot of that is reusable.

I'm saying all this from experience, it's not guess work derived from observation, I've been the guy managing these aspects and I've been the guy who does these things. Audio is the department I've got no clue about.

 

[Essy]

Small game studios and even smaller software companies. All came from experienced software development backgrounds, so it wasn't rookies going at it with zero background experience. Although some of them were first-time game developers

Okay, that provides context. I was having a hard time taking you seriously for a moment, but now I understand your background. It was just that most startups I encounter are the underlined who end up joining because they can't get hired due to lack of industry experience. But 'experienced software developer' still cannot be considered the average case.

I would say for a well organized team of experienced software developers then an expectation of a salary would make sense.
But it doesn't change the idea that for a small inexperienced ragtag team they shouldn't need quite so much because of a clear difference in quality of product.

That said, key players like you could be the difference between a successful kickstarter campaign/failure and a completed/non-complete project, so it may possible for even ragtag teams to have salaries.. but I wouldn't expect that too often.

 

[Xyphien]

Just an update to everyone, we're still awaiting a response on PayPal's end. Once we get a reply from them we will have an official release date. It's been like 2 weeks and we haven't heard anything from them yet :/

 

[ejronin]

Who here thinks that a crowdfunding site like Kickstarter or Indiegogo designed specifically for Game Developers and creators would be a good thing to have? A site where everyone in it knows how hard, and how much it costs to run a forum no matter what game program you have. I noticed on Kickstarter and Indiegogo that RM games are less likely to be funded due to the fact that people think it's easy to make, and requires no extra money. However, what they forget is not everyone is good at everything, so if you're planning on making a game, you might be good at scripting, but not graphics. This means you will have to pay graphic designers to design your website, it can become quite expensive. This being said, who here would like to see a Crowdfunding site directly made for game developers?

The reason I ask, is because 2 buddies and myself are currently in the process of making it. It should hopefully be done within the month, and I was looking to see who all would actually benefit from this. Who all would be likely to apply to this, and who all would be likely to fund projects from people.

If you have any questions on this, or wish to state somethings about it, feel free to do so :)

It's a flooded and tainted market at the moment. Not only is Kickstarter gaining bad rep for devs that backout and take longer than expected, but other sites like Desura folded because currently Steam is about the most accessible and most notable site because of Green Light and Workshop.

Aside from that, if you look at the mod communities that spread and flood other title specific communities (Minecraft, for example), the ability for traction is more difficult. Plus, the modDB and indieDB scene are rather intense with similar concepts worked into the already overwhelmingly large community with lower than expected yield.

I'd tread very lightly and do a wealth of market research before heading into that venture, and monitor your audience or targeted audience in how they react to late projects as well as develop a solid strategy for ensuring you don't snag schemers who will tarnish the name and push a sense of liability to your project (something KS has been battling with behind the scenes)...and Indies cut cost with piecemeal itemization this way.

If I was looking to develop something full on, depending on platform... Say the unreal 4 engine, crowd funding has the risk of going unfunded because of a myriad of variables and throwing yourself to the wolves.

Ultimately, one group Gamble's that the other isn't the wolf. Usually, they're both wolves.


[doublepost=1460483807,1460483105][/doublepost]

I like the idea and have thought about doing something like this myself. After having worked in the 'industry' a bit and seeing several indie teams form and branch out I've become really interested in what I like to call "the development of the development" haha. Of course, I'm in the same boat as some others here as well...I've been burned/scammed via Kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms but that's life, honestly. The internet is a dangerous place.

Let me offer some ideas that I and some mates have for this type of project;

• You can weed out some potential failures early on by requiring either an actual domain for their team, game or company. Perhaps even some registration or LLC confirmation. This shows they are at least somewhat serious about their projects.
• Give-backs! As backers we all love the rewards at the various backing levels but putting a simple #% of total funded from projects into a "Give-back" account which would then be used by the account owner to help fund other projects within the site. Fail-safe option for this if they fail to use any of the "Give-back" money in a predetermined time frame would be to take all the money and divide it evenly across some number of top-rated or some other metric measurement projects.
• Along with the above feature you could also designate another small portion of funds to be split across weekly/monthly promo or contests that puts funds towards the projects that win those events.
• Indie devs and indie teams are awesome! However, we expect some of the money that's asked for will be for commissions and other outsourced works. Set up an area for individuals or teams to be available for these jobs. Basically, add a Fiverr.com function to the site! (Plus you can make money off both aspects!

There are a few more good ones but I don't have the written list with me currently. If something doesn't make sense or if you need some further explanation just ask. Or PM me.

Most of that is a great plan, but the issues that arise are things like requiring an LLC - although a strong measure to weed, alienate individual startup groups that only see additional startup capital needed for that lisence. With that, other avenues exist elsewhere that already appeal and have strong presence. What's the gain here? Nothing.

The fiver concept is rebranded outsourcing where it becomes competitive and easily manipulated. What stops me from building a resource team and generate profit without liability? If I were a dev looking for resources and outsource, Id need to get non compete and NDAs, plus I'd also have no guarantee the same quality was guaranteed on my next project (franchise titles?) And worry about whether I'd make deadline because I've made sure I'm on someone else's ability clock.

That puts the whole idea at middle management