The Turn-Based Combat System- How would you fix it?

[ClintHennesy]

Open Forum/Discussion for all you game designers out there.



You either love it- or hate it. The turn-based combat system has been with us for years now- and the mechanics are somewhat "outdated".

• Most of the time- there's very little engagement since it's not in real time- it's generally a rinse and repeat.
• You're fighting with an AI- which makes it kind of "predictable". Making it random would feel too... well.. "random".
• There aren't too many variables to deal with. Health. Damage. Mana. etc. (We don't have positioning, timing, physics, etc.)

While many may say that these limitations are "bad" things- I'd say limitations bring out the potential to be creative.

• What would you guys to add a bit more engagement that feels convincing enough to actually enjoy the standard Turn-based System?

Theorycraft and Share Ideas!

 

[Boy Who Codes]

Most of the time- there's very little engagement since it's not in real time- it's generally a rinse and repeat.
You're fighting with an AI- which makes it kind of "predictable". Making it random would feel too... well.. "random".

This is actually true. Not only is the enemy prefixed to the encounters but most of the time when you encounter a lot of the same monsters every now and then it becomes really painful to do. Usually you skip it or just plainly rage quit because of this. I would fix it by totally making smart encounters. Probably enemies that vary depending on set regions and different behaviors depending on the weather conditions, time, etc. That way, there'd be much more fun and engaging battles, because you don't know who you'd fight. If you're worrying of the real time battles with it, I'd preferably want the turn based battle to be active. By active, I would like it that the enemies move completely free of turns. So if you don't do anything they will attack you nonstop.

There aren't too many variables to deal with. Health. Damage. Mana. etc. (We don't have positioning, timing, physics, etc.)

By physics, I am not sure what you mean. When the battle becomes too complicated with variables, I suggest that the developer drop the entire idea of turn based battles. Because to be honest turn based battles are what they are, turn based. I don't know what's fancy with Timing like an ATB bar where you have to wait for a time before your enemy or you be able to move. That's just doubling the pain you're having when the game is turn based. I can understand if the ATB happens on skills, like a skill cooldown. But if it is when you're going to make a turn, that doubles the frustration. If done correctly however, ATB battles are acceptable. TBH, games like Final Fantasy 6 and up which uses the ATB is purely repetitive, time consuming and distracting. Imagine how long the battles are in the turn based mode in FF9 because of the motion sequence, and now you have to wait for a few more seconds because of the ATB implementation.

For the positioning, well, if you mean a Grid or somewhat of the sort, I'd like it to be one step higher. I can fix it by making a line where each enemy actually has a perspective. You can't target certain enemies when they are out of perspective or the line where they are in are out of the character's range or reach. I have done this before in VXAce with my 3D Line Battle System.

 

[ClintHennesy]

This is actually true. Not only is the enemy prefixed to the encounters but most of the time when you encounter a lot of the same monsters every now and then it becomes really painful to do. Usually you skip it or just plainly rage quit because of this. I would fix it by totally making smart encounters. Probably enemies that vary depending on set regions and different behaviors depending on the weather conditions, time, etc. That way, there'd be much more fun and engaging battles, because you don't know who you'd fight. If you're worrying of the real time battles with it, I'd preferably want the turn based battle to be active. By active, I would like it that the enemies move completely free of turns. So if you don't do anything they will attack you nonstop.



By physics, I am not sure what you mean. When the battle becomes too complicated with variables, I suggest that the developer drop the entire idea of turn based battles. Because to be honest turn based battles are what they are, turn based. I don't know what's fancy with Timing like an ATB bar where you have to wait for a time before your enemy or you be able to move. That's just doubling the pain you're having when the game is turn based. I can understand if the ATB happens on skills, like a skill cooldown. But if it is when you're going to make a turn, that doubles the frustration. If done correctly however, ATB battles are acceptable. TBH, games like Final Fantasy 6 and up which uses the ATB is purely repetitive, time consuming and distracting. Imagine how long the battles are in the turn based mode in FF9 because of the motion sequence, and now you have to wait for a few more seconds because of the ATB implementation.

For the positioning, well, if you mean a Grid or somewhat of the sort, I'd like it to be one step higher. I can fix it by making a line where each enemy actually has a perspective. You can't target certain enemies when they are out of perspective or the line where they are in are out of the character's range or reach. I have done this before in VXAce with my 3D Line Battle System.

Hey Soul! Thanks for the reply. This really made me think about how I should phrase some stuff more- but anyways~ Let's discuss! :D

Smart Encounters- Yes. This is good. This is a smart design. That way- people would have to mix and match their current members and have to pre-set up before an actual encounter. This definitely ups the "engagement part" of it. It doesn't put a lot of complexity on the gameplay side- but gives more depth and more sense as to what's happening outside.

Sample Idea: So a game that features some sort of calendar and have "travel" and days pass as you travel would make you think twice before picking your party to travel to an area far away- cuz the mobs would potentially change in the middle of that travel.

Another idea I might add would be Conditional Encounters. Maybe have some sort of an additional mechanic outside of the battle that would affect an encounter. Hmm... but the conditions should still have a bit of sense design wise for the player to actually "enjoy". Haha. Just an idea. :P

ATB Bars never made sense to me as well. xD But just to give off some stuff I found other games have done that were pretty interesting:
Super Mario's Superstar Saga's Jump/Dodge Mechanic.
Pokemon's "Rotation Battle"- were you rotate left and right between 3 Pokemon. (though- fighting an AI- this feels pretty random. haha)

Maybe an Interactive Rotation Battle would be Cool- where you would swap your current Player here and there- but have some sort of deeper choices behind which to switch with- not just "Switch to Rock cuz he's scissors".

 

[Boy Who Codes]

Switching through players (battlers) during battle is a good idea to implement. I can do a plugin like that to solve it. One more thing I can add for this is that switching through players should be something worth the switch. In pokemon, I usually switch to one pokemon to another because of the following reasons:

• The element my foe's pokemon is classified from is the opposite stronger type than mine. It is going to be a one sided battle if I use that pokemon.
• The pokemon is outclassed in level.
• The pokemon is overmatched with the foe's weak pokemon.

If you also have a dying character and you're able to switch quickly, this is going to be a cheat as well as a disadvantage. For example, your player is weak and you switched. If the enemy's turn is a skill and you switched, you will initially have to receive the damage. Therefore the switched player is already damaged in before you even play as that character.

A way to fix this is a counter based rotation. A way where you can only switch to that player when a few counters is made. It's like a Charge Turn stuff, where you have to use the player a few turns before another. You can also use your idea of conditional encounters where some enemies can actually petrify the player switching.

 

[juptersdaughtr]

That's just doubling the pain you're having when the game is turn based. I can understand if the ATB happens on skills, like a skill cooldown. But if it is when you're going to make a turn, that doubles the frustration

Oh my god this. How many games have I played that used ATB to make it more unique but actually just made it more frustrating and boring than a well balanced vanilla RPG maker battle system? Especially in grind-heavy titles that make battles take three times longer than they need to.

• Most of the time- there's very little engagement since it's not in real time- it's generally a rinse and repeat.

Just keep the enemies fresh. Have some that can only die by, say water damage. A ghost enemy that can only be killed by light/holy damage. An enemy that is immune to magic attacks but really weak to physical attacks, yet is good at dodging them. I remember one game I played where you had to use two skills in a certain order to weaken the enemy. You can also do things like add combo bonus for certain moves, the 'blitz' attack from FFVI, stuff like that.

I don't know. . . If the enemies keep having to make me think of ways to kill them and the battle is engaging, I tend to not get as bored. I do get bored when I can kill every enemy with the default attack option. The problems in most turn based battle system games aren't the battle system, it's the developer.

It may also seem like a weird point, but we get more engaged in battles when we are more immersed. That's why side view battles are so much better. Like, use plugins like action sequence, Mog Hunter has some great battle cameras weather plugins and even plugins that make the screen just come to life by adding layers to the battle backs.

(i'm referencing the one at about 59 seconds, the site won't let me embed with the time)

I actually find the fast paced camera here to be a bit nauseating, but slowing it down would make it pretty great. I especially love the layers of trees and fog.

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  • You're fighting with an AI- which makes it kind of "predictable". Making it random would feel too... well.. "random".

I'm very confused by your issue here. Every enemy in every game, be it a 2D RPG or a first party mega title like CoD have AI enemies...

• There aren't too many variables to deal with. Health. Damage. Mana. etc. (We don't have positioning, timing, physics, etc.)

You could always add in, say, a weight plugin. Like, heavy armor may make agility much slower and you have to weigh the benefits and risks. You can even take it a step farther and have certain skills not work if your wearing armor above a certain weight because it slows you down too much.