Thoughts on Game Difficulty

[Ravani Lestari]

So what are your thoughts on the difficulty of a game? I'm not talking about a game like Etrian Odyssey or Legends of Legacy, where the player has no clue what they are getting themselves into and they end up dying because the boss has a specific pattern. I'm talking more like Dark Souls, where the player knows what they are getting themselves into, how to dodge, when to dodge, how long it takes to use a healing potion, etc.

I want to hear your opinions on playing an rpg that works kind of like Dark Souls, where the bosses do have specific patterns like in Etrian, but it isn't enough to wipe your party with one swing. I have a system set up to where even normal enemies will (Ready their ????) before they do a heavy-hitting attack. In my opinion, I think even that makes it too easy. You also have to consider that Dark Souls is an action game and is not turn-based, so most of the mechanics of an action game are their for the player to learn and utilize. In an rpg, this is different for the player. The player does not have control over whether or not they miss an attack, guard at the right moments, or even predict when a boss does a heavy attack. However, they do have control over making long and thought out decisions, which can create more of an atmosphere for deciding whether to take a risk or to play it safe.

Is there an "in between?"

 

[Macro]

When it comes to games like that, though I never played Dark Souls (I HATE trap games), I'm limited to my 250-300 ms reaction time and sleep deprived state, so I'll never be that good at those.

I've seen a number of games that tend to reward the player for having the ability to flash evade or flash guard. I guess that's the best middle ground I can think of- have different ways to beat the game but reward the more "skilled" players with better rewards and maybe even some type of secret skill/dialogue/weapon etc.

The thing about JRPGs is that they are typically made for people who always have the option to grind and feel extra powerful by investing a heavy load of time into it. If that aspect is removed, I think it would bore a lot of players, but that's just purely my opinion of course. Shin Megami is a favorite example, because anyone is capable of trial and error by discovering weaknesses and good team builds. It did piss a lot of folks off though.

It's hard to find a perfect (as possible) balance for anything in a game, really, bit that's what sequels are for. :)

 

[Ravani Lestari]

When it comes to games like that, though I never played Dark Souls (I HATE trap games), I'm limited to my 250-300 ms reaction time and sleep deprived state, so I'll never be that good at those.

I've seen a number of games that tend to reward the player for having the ability to flash evade or flash guard. I guess that's the best middle ground I can think of- have different ways to beat the game but reward the more "skilled" players with better rewards and maybe even some type of secret skill/dialogue/weapon etc.

The thing about JRPGs is that they are typically made for people who always have the option to grind and feel extra powerful by investing a heavy load of time into it. If that aspect is removed, I think it would bore a lot of players, but that's just purely my opinion of course. Shin Megami is a favorite example, because anyone is capable of trial and error by discovering weaknesses and good team builds. It did piss a lot of folks off though.

It's hard to find a perfect (as possible) balance for anything in a game, really, bit that's what sequels are for. :)

So the best thing to do would not make it a requirement to progress, but if players can utilize the mechanics to the fullest. then they should be rewarded. I already have an idea that can make that difference, and that idea is conditional drops. So if a player defeats an enemy while it is poisoned, they can obtain, say, a vile of poison blood. which can be crafted into a poisonous dagger.

Edit: One thing I do wonder about are how players perceive difficulty. If the mechanic is in the game and they are not utilizing it at all, and it is difficult for them, is the game difficult altogether or is it the player that is making it difficult for themselves? It's a mind-boggling question because players want to be able to play the game their way, and when they are restricted to the game mechanics, they find it to be difficult. People these days are more into sandbox games, where they can progress through a game in their own way. Then again, that sucks for the developers that have an image that they want to share.

 

[Essy]

One of my old VX Ace projects took a lot of inspiration from Dark Souls, it was a rather short project set in a world I used for some Tabletop RPs.
My philosophy during development of that project was 'Difficult but Fair'.
I ended up changing my thinking to "the player may fall for this and take a lot of damage, but with proper awareness they wont even fall into it the first time."
My testers immediately raised their awareness after the first trap and they were able to circumvent 'most traps.'
Enemy encounters were similar. They left certain openings though not entirely obvious as it may be a mechanical weakness. For example there were some vampires that had a set of stuns, life drains and projectiles. The vampires in particular couldn't shoot diagonally and had a small windup for their shot. Thus they were vulnerable to diagonal attacks.

Boss fights in general were more designed for the player to be able to observe and try to approach it with various timing based dominant strategies.
Whereas if they approached with something that was obviously a bad idea they would take huge amounts of damage.

Let's look at Dark Souls for examples of this, when fighting the Taurus demon as you are approaching him an arrow is likely shot into your back. You're not yet close enough to encounter the boss but you see an archer.
Your thoughts are (Oh I better deal with that.)
Once you do you encounter the Taurus demon you try fighting it normally and you will probably get struck and take absurd amount of damage.. but not enough to kill you.
At this point you have to retreat but to where? He's chasing you!.. Oh the tower where the archer was!
Once you healed up there the Taurus demon approaches.
He's down below you and you remember from the tutorial. "I'm supposed to plunge down on him."

It's this type of design that's important, you have to lead players towards dominant strategies or give them opportunities to make their own.
And it's that idea that's important.

Of course someone who rushes head on into danger over and over will fail, but with some clever tactics they will succeed.

These ideas are harder to implement in a turn based scenario but not impossible. Paper Mario comes to mind. When it comes to turn based systems we have the idea of Counterplay Systems built around you being able to learn about the risk.
For example in Paper Mario you'll often be avoiding/blocking enemy attacks until you determine the best strategy to take 'them' out.
In Golden Sun you can utilize Elemental Defense through the Djinn and Healing in order to turn things into a battle of attrition until you learn just how many risks you're allowed to take.

tl;dr
In Action RPGs we can create difficult but fair systems through awareness and risk management.
In Turn-Based RPGs we can only really rely on Risk Management.

Going too far in either direction(offense/defense) creates a single dominant strategy for turn-based RPGs though.
As such they need to be balanced more carefully for this.

 

[Micro]

So if a player defeats an enemy while it is poisoned, they can obtain, say, a vile of poison blood. which can be crafted into a poisonous dagger.

this is a great idea. things like "secret achievements" if you use certain tactics in battle. Would definitely increase replayability somewhat, having things like this scattered about. you could also have some secret, very difficult bosses as well.

maybe something like a New Game+ unlocks a new difficulty? with some new quests, items, bosses, etc. that way the player is already familiar with the game mechanics and such.

 

[Macro]

Or some kind of "soul stealing" ability like Soul Trap in Elder Scrolls games.

 

[MinisterJay]

There are different types of game difficulty. In some games, there is only one way to defeat a boss. With these games, you may lose the player, after X attempts, and they get frustrated. I like games where choices have consequence. I have made games where you will get eliminated if you did not follow the directions specifically given for a quest. I come from the line of first generation Dungeons & Dragons players and dungeon masters. You do something that is not smart, you die. If you have a first level character, and you see a frost giant down the path....do not go down the path. Puzzles can also add to the difficulty of game. Some game companies make money off of this factor. They charge you for the game, and then charge again for the "strategy book." As a game dev, one must always remember that when self-testing a game, you know the solutions. Try out random choices to see what the player might do.

 

[Iron Croc]

In my opinion, every game that has difficulty should have a difficulty curve. I've seen far too many otherwise glorious games be too hard from the getgo frustrating a player to the point where they just quit.