Why aren't there more map battle systems?

[LordBones]

I'm the Lord Bones however I wasn't always, I used to be called Optioned on forums and spoke with a guy called Kan Gao over MSN then. I tested the game Quintessence: The Blighted Venom, you could probably find my old forum posts, this game had a simple but some how effective map based battle system to it. Now it wasn't perfect, I wouldn't even say it was good but it was satisfactory and certainly the limits of what could be done just in events.

That is the only real attempt in a big full game I've seen a map based battle system done, the only one. Every time a RPG maker game comes up on steam I look through the screenshots and find the final fantasy layout battle system -not always the readily available, but nevertheless the turn based. Why don't we see more attempts at map battle systems? Is it because they're bad? well they generally are however you can make them good especially now with this version of RPG Maker MV.

Currently I'm creating a game along with my sister and although we spent the better part of last week bashing our heads against walls, a map based battle system actually seems now to work. I'm not even that good of a programmer and my sister although smart only really knew the complicated Javascript stuff about 2 months ago. So why if someone who is a self confessed 'not good programmer' can maybe produce something that is better than the Quintessence battle system (how good beyond that is upto discussion), havn't more people had better cracks at it?

Having thought about this a lot I wondered if it was because a lot of Japanese love to program new things into games, however Monster Hunter is a system seller there so surely they could figure something out and make it amazing. Next thought was because it's just not good enough and if you're going to go to the trouble you may as well program your own game, RPG Maker is after all not the first choice if you're a talented programer. Next thought was pretty simple that using a Turn Based system is easier and feels less like you're fighting against mechanics and more like you're in a dungeons & dragons battle which is true. Bonus thought being people want to concentrate on story rather than building a whole system. Final thought was maybe it's not worth it and games sell better with the final fantasy style battle system, maybe people get scared by the map based due to terrible mechanics.

Not saying there aren't others however more people are making games in this engine and the percentage of map battle systems is really small even though these games are getting on steam.

Any thoughts?

 

[Status Gear Entertainment]

I completely agree and share the same frustration as you. I was looking forward to what I thought would be a more likely hood of map battle systems but to this day only one at the moment is in development that I am aware of by Quasi ABS. I was also hoping someone would recreate a more efficient H-Mode 7 script which was made on RMXP. Yet to no avail do these things really exist, that is one major reason why I haven't produced a single game. I have these ideas and plots and everything that I share with everyone but in my eyes it is not enough without a battle system to match the rest of the game. It would be disappointing to put so much effort into creating a game only to give the audience a simple turn based system. This is not my ideal choice of battle and if I could do more, I would make one myself.

You claim there is one that uses events. I have not seen it yet but I look forward to seeing what they got so I can refine it. I have created events as replacements for scripts and plugins so im sure i can come up with something.

 

[LordBones]

The game I saw and played, Quintessence: The Blighted Venom by Freebird used a map based battle system and I know from talking to him that at least at the time I tested it, it was all event based. The creator at the time Kan Gao couldn't code ruby and certainly not to that degree. You get to battles fairly quickly (within like an hour) and the game is completely free on Freebird's website. As a note the game To The Moon and A Bird Story is by the same creator.

This is exactly my point though, having this and have it be half decent makes all the difference to a project.

 

[Macro]

I've been plagued with years trying to make my own battle system. Truth is for me it took a long time to make one, and by time I had one programmed, the next RPG Maker version is out. X_X

There really isn't many options for battle systems in JRPGs. You have your FF tried and true generic one, Fire Emblem tactics style, Zelda on screen action, and front view Dragon Quest style. People like Namco wound up convoluting Tales too much with all of the skill trees and crap.

In my opinion, people stick to transition side view battles simply because it's easier and saves time. You don't see many JRPGs trying to change it up either, because well, it works for RPGs. Even Final Fantasy to this day is just still turn based. When they made auto battles in FF12 people went berserk. Back to 13, it's stance switching, people went berserk again. Truth is, turn based works really well and is easy to tweak.

I don't have desire to learn JS so I stick to eventing. I at least would like to not use RPG Maker MV battle sprites though, they are just so ugly to me. Sadly I decided to stick to simple turn based, at least until I get one freaking game released. 10 years and still not a single completed game because I kept nit picking about maps, sprites, and battle systems so long.. X_X

 

[noxyoursox]

I haven't seen many really good map-based battle systems personally, but I thought the kind of hybrid system in Chrono Trigger worked really well (basically enemies are visible on the map, then attack when you approach and start a turn-based battle right there on the map). While it would be a lot of work to program in every aspect of that system, I think the basic idea is a good compromise that could work really well (and a lot of it could be done with events).

 

[LordBones]

Had a few thoughts I'd like to share.

Here's the thing, I think you can make a good active map based battle system just nobody has gone to the trouble because it's RPG Maker and if you're going to go to that level you may as well just code for something else and get better results easier than if you were to code it for RPG Maker. We're talking about rewriting the way events move and making them only move when the script tells them to, global array based databases that inform the status of enemies and log events and the player and respond on sight. Timings so that an enemy only exists on a tile if over half of the animation has taken place, sight based reactions and attacks based upon AI. These are all things that are possible however RPG Maker is tile based which means you need to do a few more ranged attacks otherwise events will start taking the literal tiles to heart and attack cooldowns will screw everything up.

The problem is events not scripting I feel. When I run my scripts I have to put cooldowns because they're so fast, I'm running on a good computer so maybe that isn't the best representation however these things can run far more lines of code without slowing down even a little. All I need is the Preloader and bam! a set of a few plugins of a couple thousand lines can display UI, create a battle system and perform animations that go beyond the specifications of the character size with a few plugins that handle pictures.

It's possible, is it feasible yes, is it worth it? If we want RPG Maker to get out of this rut where core gamers on Steam outright dismiss RPG Maker games then yes. It needs to exist and sometime after it comes out (the game that first uses it) it needs to be standardised and come to the free market (or be available to everybody). Active battle systems are what sets us apart from 'real' game developers who might program 2D games in other engines, that and people using defaults.

Update: I'd like to share with you an early build of what I'm creating in order to describe the idea of the timings. The bore only attacks when the game believes it's in the X and Y not when the event actually does. Needs tweaking but should help if you don't understand the above. Also is a lot more comfortable to play at 60 fps rather than this 24 frames per second one?

 

[CT_Bolt]

Can Map Based Battle Systems be good?

Absolutely! It's all about how it is utilized.

• Zelda, Secret of Mana, Illusion of Gaia are some good examples of on map real-time Action Battle System games.
• Chrono Trigger has an excellent battle system where contact with enemies on a field map initiates a battle that occurs directly on the map rather than on a separate battle screen.

Just to clarify from what I've read above... you're referring to an ABS such as Zelda correct? ...or perhaps more like Chrono Trigger?
It looks like you're aiming for something more like Zelda... have you checked out Quasi's ABS Plugin (Click here to View)?
Also just found this: http://www.koonsolo.com/news/how-to-make-a-zelda-like-game/
Not real relevant to MV but could be useful in someway.

 

[LordBones]

Those links are very good. The battle system thing is really cool. I won't use it but I guess it's either people don't know about it, don't like it or choose not to use it.

It makes it more interesting that there is a ARPG battle system but not enough people are using it.

 

[Essy]

I'm the Lord Bones however I wasn't always, I used to be called Optioned on forums and spoke with a guy called Kan Gao over MSN then.

I haven't talked with Reives in years. :U Not since my XP days. You reminded me that I should get around to playing Quintessence sometime.

Every time a RPG maker game comes up on steam I look through the screenshots and find the final fantasy layout battle system -not always the readily available, but nevertheless the turn based.

There are two types of development: Convergent and Divergent. Individuals are usually oriented towards one though the opposite can be learned.
Convergent tasks are more problem solving oriented. "How do I make this mechanic work?, Do all the cogs fit?" As opposed to a divergent task like writing "What paths could I take here? Is this a funner way to go? Is it still coherent if I let things go a little wacky?" Development of a truly great game requires a bit of both however if you want something that will be remembered you can actually give up convergent development. If you have a great story the mechanics can be limited. Even then limited mechanics can be executed well by divergent thinkers as they are the ones who come up with unique ways of utilizing the mechanics.
For this reason you would see more games with limited mechanics become more popular through platforms like steam. Think of games like OFF, Ib, and The Mirror Lied. These are all remembered for their story and execution of rather simple mechanics.

Why don't we see more attempts at map battle systems? Is it because they're bad?

Programmatically coupling can be a bit of an issue. The issue is never 'making an ABS' the issue becomes 'making an ABS that others can plug and play.' For someone like me I can essentially go into the script editor, ad-hoc everything, and play god. But that kind of programming while capable of very diverse and dynamic behavior isn't appropriate for the plug and play style that is necessary for the RPG Maker Community.

So now we have to make a decoupled script that makes clever usage of aliasing to inject the script into existing code without interfering with its original state.
But perhaps we run into issues where sections have to be rewritten? We 'could' just redefine the code but this may cause compatibility issues. A lack of compatibility with other popular scripts would result in your script not being adopted properly by the community. So now we have to rely on an additional level of misdirection to behave ALONGSIDE the original code.
Our new code will then handle the processing that should have been done in that step, but by having this level of misdirection things get complicated. We can't operate on the original data we must make a copy of the data and perform all of the processing on our own, this is especially important in a language like Ruby where deep copying doesn't work how it should and a true deep copy can become a bottleneck.

But don't forget that these systems need to be tied into the engine as well. So now we're looking at regex matching and parsing as well as powerful schemes to facilitate development by non-scripters.

The battle systems in the end are still a little cumbersome even for scripters; writers can't exactly be expected to adopt that. :/
Having a divergent thinker on the project as well to extend the behavior could help overcome these issues, just do your best not to let it turn into a moving target problem or it'll just enter development hell.

 

[LordBones]

Okay, I think I get your reasoning, it would require a team to produce something that could plug and play which isn't cost effective and it's unlikely to be adopted if you offer a straight and narrow path.

So individual projects havn't done it because they don't have the right people on their team or any team at all.

I'm not sure about this divergent/convergent thing being a root cause, little more likely that it's a huge project to put together a good battle system although maybe that is the problem. Maybe because most people are working alone and generally are one or the other at least some of the time that they simply can't come up with the answer enough of the time. That tied with laziness makes the probability curve much lower than it already is.

Can't believe Quintessence isn't finished... lol

 

[Essy]

I'm not sure about this divergent/convergent thing being a root cause,

Basically, the convergent and divergent one is a bit of an over generalization for 'left and right brained people.' But the point comes down to that a single individual is usually not diverse enough to make something suitable for all audiences.

When push comes to shove I can sprite, though not quickly and I can only conform to an existing style not invent my own. I can make 'decent' maps; nothing too amazing.. if anything this is my second best category My storytelling is lacking though I've been practicing! On the other hand I excel at scripting which means I can introduce some unique mechanics. Under any circumstances don't throw me near a musical instrument. I swear I'm cursed when it comes to music; couldn't get anything down even with lessons.
Meanwhile my little brother got his first keyboard yesterday and was playing Undertale tracks by ear. > . > (I basically told him I'm going to draft him into my projects as musical talent if he ever learns to synthesize. )

What it comes down to though is that while I can learn the other skills I lack the inherent talent needed to be exceptional in those categories. It would be much better for me to just script for someone else who is talented in those categories.

 

[Seraphic_Realm]

Does anyone know how to make a pokemon styled battle system. I just need to tweak a few things on that. and ill have my own uniqe game battle system. evolving skills would be hard but interesting to have in the game I make...I can make skills right now that get skill exp and rank up.

 

[LordBones]

Does anyone know how to make a pokemon styled battle system. I just need to tweak a few things on that. and ill have my own uniqe game battle system. evolving skills would be hard but interesting to have in the game I make...I can make skills right now that get skill exp and rank up.

I think most of the coders on here (me included) have the skills to be able to make a pokemon style battle system. It's much easier to do a turn based system than an active. Not sure if one has been made yet for mv.

If anyone knows of one that already exists might be interesting to take a peek.

 

[Seraphic_Realm]

yeah I'm still trying to figure out scripting for making a battle system that's not FF style.

 

[Jason Brady]

Had a few thoughts I'd like to share.

Here's the thing, I think you can make a good active map based battle system just nobody has gone to the trouble because it's RPG Maker and if you're going to go to that level you may as well just code for something else and get better results easier than if you were to code it for RPG Maker. We're talking about rewriting the way events move and making them only move when the script tells them to, global array based databases that inform the status of enemies and log events and the player and respond on sight. Timings so that an enemy only exists on a tile if over half of the animation has taken place, sight based reactions and attacks based upon AI. These are all things that are possible however RPG Maker is tile based which means you need to do a few more ranged attacks otherwise events will start taking the literal tiles to heart and attack cooldowns will screw everything up.

The problem is events not scripting I feel. When I run my scripts I have to put cooldowns because they're so fast, I'm running on a good computer so maybe that isn't the best representation however these things can run far more lines of code without slowing down even a little. All I need is the Preloader and bam! a set of a few plugins of a couple thousand lines can display UI, create a battle system and perform animations that go beyond the specifications of the character size with a few plugins that handle pictures.

It's possible, is it feasible yes, is it worth it? If we want RPG Maker to get out of this rut where core gamers on Steam outright dismiss RPG Maker games then yes. It needs to exist and sometime after it comes out (the game that first uses it) it needs to be standardised and come to the free market (or be available to everybody). Active battle systems are what sets us apart from 'real' game developers who might program 2D games in other engines, that and people using defaults.

Update: I'd like to share with you an early build of what I'm creating in order to describe the idea of the timings. The bore only attacks when the game believes it's in the X and Y not when the event actually does. Needs tweaking but should help if you don't understand the above. Also is a lot more comfortable to play at 60 fps rather than this 24 frames per second one?

I know I am a little late to this particular party, but I wanted to toss in a couple cents worth. I feel like part of the reason people tend not to make map-battle systems in RPG Maker has more to do with RPG Maker being one of the only engines that can provide transition-driven turn based retro combat easily. It takes just as much effort to get something like Game Maker Studio to do that rather than a map-battle based game as it does to make RPG Maker make a map-battle based game.

On the other hand, if your scripts are running too fast, I recommend having common events take care of your timing, since they refresh at the steady rate of in-game frames (60 per second), and can readily call your scripts through plugin commands. Then you only need to calibrate your scripts so that they perform their purpose and are done, and make sure your common events are firing those plugin commands at the correct times. I haven't tried a map-battle system in RPG Maker, so I don't know exactly how you would go about that, but it would be my starting point for sure

 

[Zebaroth]

yes this is a battle system they should have as an option many good rpg's used it secret of evermore used it as did the secret of mana games
and many others but i guess they make rpg maker to be simple and a turn based battle system is easy to code