Rule Revisions & Additions

[MinisterJay]

According to End User License Agreement, Supplemental Provisions: Game Distribution Terms, Article 2 Handling of Company Assets, Section 3:

However, the User may, without compensation, reproduce, transfer, publically broadcast, or make transmittable any Company Assets they modified themselves to another Licensed User.


@LTN Games and I hit Post Reply at virtually the same time. :)

In layman's terms, we can distribute modified RTP to others.

 

[Macro]

@Xyphien: I'm just offering my opinions since it was asked. :) @MinisterJay had an excellent suggestion though- showing people how to download/use a free editor and do the color edits themselves. I'm a firm believer in teaching people to learn for themselves, especially for the simpler things. Remember though, I was talking about changing simple colors around with a swap of a number, not doing pixel by pixel color changes. Those CAN take a lot of time.

"A user want's to make a black and white game, however lacks the funds or resources to use a photo editing software. Now, they cannot because there isn't a black and white version of a template."

"Prove me wrong"

1. http://manytools.org/image/colorize-filter/

2. Upload image - http://i.imgur.com/fYqoQxE.png

3. Save image - http://i.imgur.com/AlFnvN9.png

Works for resources too, very easy to do. Took 1 minute. I could even submit this as my resource based on our policies. See what I meant now?

Original - http://i.imgur.com/yvpQXoq.png
B&W - http://i.imgur.com/6zoYim8.png

I didn't even play around with the options and it came out pretty good with no effort.

"It's still a creation made by your vision regardless if it's using a program to piece it together for you. You still have to have some vision on it."

Can't that just be reserved for the their game project thread? How is their own original character an actual resource? If 1000 members all uploaded their generated character, we will have a huge mess of "original characters". Course then that could warrant a new category for just generated characters to prevent an overflow.

"I'd love to see better, and higher quality resources, however even the poorest looking ones have 1+ downloads, meaning at least one person has benefited from that resources regardless of it's quality, or how little effort it takes. "

Well you seem to agree that we need at least some quality but then you don't, so I'm torn on what to think. @_@ So I guess we simply assume a download = a win for us. I can understand that.

"There are loads and loads of bad, mediocre resources"

Okay I didn't know we were going to allow that, I understand now.

"How would people uploading bad resources deter from your fun of resource making?"

It wasn't about that, it was about the face of the forum. "Wow RMMV has zero quality control and lets people upload 9 colored dots and call it a sprite sheet" is how some people could take it. Again I'm fine with that if that's what RMMV wants. I was only offering my input. ^^;

"This is where the rating system, download system, and the featured system will come into play. It will encourage people to put time, and effort into their resources."

I do like the rating system, but maybe people will be nice and not want to tag it with 1 star and the person will never really know. Will it be the staff's job to jump on the resource and click 1/5? Or maybe people will just be mean (seen it enough on the net >_<) and go after them with nasty comments which makes more work for the staff.

 

[MinisterJay]

@Xyphien:
"A user want's to make a black and white game, however lacks the funds or resources to use a photo editing software. Now, they cannot because there isn't a black and white version of a template."

On this site, there is a dark black and white version of almost all RTP, and above mentioned tutorial has been placed in Tutorials.

Tutorial Link: http://rpgmakermv.co/threads/how-to-make-retro-b-w-rtp-images-and-others-too.2358/ in case someone wants to add Photoshop or other image creation/modification programs.

 

[Macro]

Cool I never saw it thanks for letting me know. :) You proved my point before I did then hehe.

Ahh I see, you literally just made that while I was asleep.

 

[Amysaurus]

You're not taking away from the uploader, but the users trying to download the content.

No. We're asking people not to post the same things that no other RM forum would allow them to post.
Ace.net:

• Edits: Edits must be of NOTICEABLE difference and you are required to add credits for any edits no matter how extensive.

RMW:

• Do not post any resources that can be made with a generator, of any type. Character sets, facesets, music, etc.
• Art theft can also mean posting resources that you originally had to pay for (like an image stock site, or the Samurai Materials), for free in the resource forums. These are all bannable offenses.

RT is held to a higher standard than the average resource maker. That is why there is an application process behind it, you have to prove that you make quality resources to become a RT Member. However, everyone has the ability to be a resource uploader.

There's some amazing resources out right now... Look at the top downloads and top rated resources. They are very well used, and stuff that are absolutely amazing. So, no, I don't expect that, however RT is the place where Quality is something we strive for, not the resources.

If the RT is meant to be the source of all of the quality resources here, then you're not going to have an RT for long. That is too much pressure to put on volunteers for the site. Asking for effort is not a bad thing, and I don't know what's convincing you it is.

I'd love to see better, and higher quality resources, however even the poorest looking ones have 1+ downloads, meaning at least one person has benefited from that resources regardless of it's quality, or how little effort it takes.

How so? We have a rating system, we have a download system, and soon we will have a featured section (We do, I haven't updated it however). This means that work that isn't the best won't outshine work that is the best. Yes, the resources may be chalked full of small edits, however, the REALLY GOOD work is shown, and highlighted by the system at play. I do not see how it would discourage creators to upload their resources.

This is where the rating system, download system, and the featured system will come into play. It will encourage people to put time, and effort into their resources.

There are many resources I've downloaded for the sole purpose of reviewing them, then deleted them right after. That doesn't mean they were good. That doesn't mean they were useful. That means I looked at them. A download does not make a resource good.

The featured system hasn't been updated enough to give me any reason to think it'll work.

How would people uploading bad resources deter from your fun of resource making? Also, I look at it differently, beginner-level artists would most likely enjoy it more, as their work, which most likely wouldn't be the best, would look that much better compared to others.

Why should I share what I make if it's going to be crowded out of the resource page by hundred's of low-quality edits? Nobody's going to rate a resource they can't find. It's incredibly discouraging.

Also, "beginner-level artists would most likely enjoy it more, as their work, which most likely wouldn't be the best, would look that much better compared to others" is just the "Stand next to ugly people to look better" argument. That's never been a good way to look at things, and it doesn't encourage anyone to try harder.

A user want's to make a black and white game, however lacks the funds or resources to use a photo editing software. Now, they cannot because there isn't a black and white version of a template.

Let's say a 15 year old is using their parents computer. They've been asking for RMMV for a while, and they finally bought it for them. They also authorized use of downloads from this site as it has https, however, they refuse to download GIMP or buy Photoshop. Because GIMP has a past of having adware on it, and photoshop is out of their budget. (https is coming soon btw) Now they cannot do things by themselves as they lack the requirements to do it. Paint doesn't have this option as far as I'm aware. Prove me wrong, and I'll be sure to change my argument, however not EVERYONE is as luxurious as us and has programs readily available. A lot of people use someone else's computers, or simple are scared of viruses, etc. and won't download programs.

1. That's incredibly unlikely.

2. If someone can't afford an image editor, there are plenty of free ones. If they're not allowed to download one(?), then:

There are plenty of quality ones. I've tried pretty much all of them on the first search page. Otherwise, if they can't make substantial edits, they shouldn't be uploading resources.

3. We have a resource request section.

My vision with this, once again was to have a similar system to this: http://www.planetminecraft.com/resources/skins/?order=order_updated

There are loads and loads of bad, mediocre resources, HOWEVER, if you click on the downloads, ratings, etc. you will find the best things ever. PlanetMinecraft has been up, and functional since the start of minecraft, and is something HUGE and widely known and loved. They do not have much rules on uploading, the only main rule is don't steal other people's work, which we have as a rule. They do not limit the uploaders, or downloaders, and it is proven to be effective.

This isn't Minecraft, so the standards are different. This is for people trying to make games, not play an existing one differently.

Not every good resource gets those downloads or ratings. Half of the fun of looking through resources is finding hidden gems, but that's something I'd practically give up on if we allow any minute change.

So, here's a sprite I made.

I want to get my resource count up (or maybe I have 10 minutes, and a Photoshop app on my phone). So, it's totally fine for me to upload this new "high contrast" version as its own resource?

That took me 40 seconds, and half of that was opening the app. "Effort."

 

[Xyphien]

If the RT is meant to be the source of all of the quality resources here, then you're not going to have an RT for long. That is too much pressure to put on volunteers for the site. Asking for effort is not a bad thing, and I don't know what's convincing you it is.

"There's some amazing resources out right now... Look at the top downloads and top rated resources. They are very well used, and stuff that are absolutely amazing. So, no, I don't expect that, however RT is the place where Quality is something we strive for, not the resources."
Other words: People upload quality resources outside of the RT as well. So, as I believe I said, no, the RT is not uploading ALL the quality resources...

Otherwise, if they can't make substantial edits, they shouldn't be uploading resources.

My whole argument hasn't been for the uploader, but the downloader. Thus why I keep referring to the people downloading the resources. Some people may not be able to use that, etc. which is why they should have the ability to DOWNLOAD resources uploaded from the site, with a wide selection.

This isn't Minecraft, so the standards are different. This is for people trying to make games, not play an existing one differently.

Resources, are resources regardless if it's for a game, game maker, music, files, etc. Minecraft has an RTP just like RMMV does, and recolors, etc. are allowed, and used.

I want to get my resource count up (or maybe I have 10 minutes, and a Photoshop app on my phone). So, it's totally fine for me to upload this new "high contrast" version as its own resource?

This is why there is an 'update' button on your resources. So, you can update your resource to include the new high quality version of it.

 

[Zebestian]

@Xyphien if you simply ignore half of the points being brought up here it's no wonder we keep going around in circles.

My whole argument hasn't been for the uploader, but the downloader. Thus why I keep referring to the people downloading the resources. Some people may not be able to use that, etc. which is why they should have the ability to DOWNLOAD resources uploaded from the site, with a wide selection.

And we keep saying that it would be easier to simply request such edits if they are actually needed and not have an abundance of quick edits in the resource section. The cases in which such resources are being needed are very rare anyway, so why have all that stuff when no one's looking for it?

Resources, are resources regardless if it's for a game, game maker, music, files, etc. Minecraft has an RTP just like RMMV does, and recolors, etc. are allowed, and used.

Oh wow, wonderful. And how big was the Minecraft community again? How popular was that game again? You can't simply make that comparison and say "oh hey look, that one community does it that way, so we should do that too". Just because they do it for Minecraft doesn't mean it makes as much sense to do the same for RM. RPG Maker and Minecraft are two totally different pieces of software with different user bases and different sets of rules and regulations. So, no resources are not "resources regardless".

It wasn't about that, it was about the face of the forum. "Wow RMMV has zero quality control and lets people upload 9 colored dots and call it a sprite sheet" is how some people could take it.

Another point I already brought up. I drew an analogy between "poor" resources on here and poorly made RPG Maker games on Steam. Do you know what kind of reputation all those poorly made games brought upon RM? It will be exactly the same with this forum's resource section. People see that it's mainly simple edits and won't look any further and our forum's resource section will become infamous very quickly.

In layman's terms, we can distribute modified RTP to others.

To licensed users, right? So, users that actually own MV, right? So how do we check if someone downloading a "modified" resource is actually licensed? To what extent do they have to be modified? I don't think it's so easy to say that doing that is totally okay. Look at the other forums. I'm sure they have valid reasons why they don't allow it. And unlike with Minecraft, we can draw a comparison between them and us.

 

[MinisterJay]

Even on rpgmakerweb.com they have RTP edits. At the top there is a warning that whoever uses the resources, must own MV. There are recolors, add shadow, take away shadow, etc. on their own website. If it has been modified, it is modified. No deep explanation needed. That is no different than the VX Ace, VX, XP, etc RTP edits, which are in abundance on that forum. If someone steals it, it is beyond our control and responsibility. My MV RTP edits have a warning on top, and partial parts of images having XP components have warning too that they have to own that version too..

 

[Amysaurus]

@MinisterJay: Right, and their types of recolors and edits are what I'm fine with, i.e. the kinds where colors are changed according to the palette, and edits actually involve some work. Not just changing the tone to blue, etc. etc. Even then, you generally aren't supposed to ask for credit with recolors or frankensprites, because you didn't make the majority of the finished product yourself.

We have to be extra careful about legalities, though, because our number of staff is so small. We don't have the people or resources to be looking into who has or has not bought the software, which is something they can do much easier at RMW.


@Xyphien: Ah, sorry, you missed my point - it's not an update. If allowing edits of hues or saturation should be allowed, why can't this be a standalone sprite? Didn't I change the colors?

So, here's a sprite I made.

- >

This is the kind of thing I don't want in resources. Anyone at all could just up the saturation by 50 (what I did), and call it a new resource with the rules we have. And what would stop them from uploading another version with the saturation up by 49? 48? Nothing. That's why we need standards.

If keeping different tonal shifts an option is that important to you, then I'll write a guide for it myself and include it in the RT package. Maybe even a complete tutorial for that section. I have zero problems with that.

- - - - -
That said, I'd like some feedback on how I reworded some of our rules in an earlier post, if anybody has some! I'd much rather start clean in a new topic with discussing resources and their rules, because I think we're losing a lot of good points between the discussion topics.

 

[MinisterJay]

...you generally aren't supposed to ask for credit with recolors or frankensprites, because you didn't make the majority of the finished product yourself.

Thanks. Taken care of. :)

 

[Amysaurus]

I went ahead and made a new topic for us to discuss additions to the resource rules, since I don't think any of us expected the discussion to be as big as it has been.

Here's how I tweaked the wording/clarified some of our forum rules. Any thoughts or suggestions would be awesome. :)

Spoiler

1. No spamming.
This includes:
- Double-posting before 72 hours have passed. If you feel you aren’t getting enough attention, try waiting a while and updating with new content.
- Necroposting, or posting on old threads that can no longer provide any valuable discussion.
- Sending PMs in order to advertise.
- Posting short responses (1-2 words) that do not add to the discussion.
- Posting in a non-English language.

2. Be respectful of your fellow members.
- Insulting, flaming, mocking, or otherwise harassing other members will not be tolerated here.
- If you disagree with someone, try to keep it civilized and respect everyone else. If the disagreement starts getting heated, move it to a PM.

3. Keep advertising to a minimum.
- Do not advertise other communities or websites unless it’s relevant to the discussion in question. Otherwise it will be considered spam.

Exceptions include:
- Youtube videos and informative articles.
- Your own production websites.
- Steam and other gaming profiles.
- Links to your creations in the Resource/Game sections.​

- If you are unsure of whether you should post something, feel free to ask either @Xyphien or myself.

4. Do not post or discuss ways to get any games or materials illegally.
- This includes requesting, discussing, or posting links/tutorials to find torrents, rips, keygens, cracks, or anything of that nature. You will get banned for it.

5. Stay on topic, and don’t take over another user’s thread.
This includes:
- Asking for materials in another user’s request thread.
- Going off on an unrelated tangent in a thread.
- If you find your thread running off topic, consider starting a new thread regarding the derailing topic.

6. Keep adult content to a minimum.
- Give proper warning when posting any potentially NSFW material.
- Swearing isn’t prohibited, but please refrain from doing so excessively.
- Avoid posting any sort of nudity.

7. Keep your forum signature under 300 pixels high.
- If any of your images are links are too long, you can hide them in spoilers.

8. Do not deliberately post any offensive or controversial material.
This includes:
- Making controversial posts or topics, such as those regarding politics, religion, unless the discussion involves game design.
- Posting anything you feel can cause hurt feelings or offend others, etc.

9. Do not steal or plagiarize any creator's work.
- Do not post or upload another person’s work without their permission.
- Do not claim another person's work as your own.
- Do not link to any illegal copies of anyone's work. (see rule #4)

10. Keep status updates and profile posts clean.
This includes:
- Making your posts no longer than 5 lines long.
- Not posting excessively - if your name appears more than twice in the status update area, that’s too much!

11. Do not take staff matters into your own hands.
This includes:
- Trying to warn about or call out a member’s actions without reporting the thread.
- Using “mod voice” (bright/colored text) to state rules or suggestions.
- Trying to create an “official” forum event without permission.

12. If you have any problems with a staff member, follow the chain of command:
- If you have a complaint about an RT member, contact their RT leader.
- If you have a complaint about an RT leader, Support Staff, etc. contact a moderator.
- If you have a complaint about a moderator, contact an admin.

If you see anyone breaking the rules, please notify an admin or moderator by either tagging us in the thread, reporting the post, or sending a PM.

 

[MinisterJay]

In less than a day, I have seen the Forum Rules go from 9 to 12 and back to 9. I say we stop going back and forth, and continue with the rules we already had already in force.

The vision of this forum is to be the best, fun RPG Maker MV forum around. The more restrictions we put in force, the less freedom our members have.

I am glad that our non-staff members have not seen the de-edification of our forum's leadership. Yes this is a volunteer staff. Xyphien is our leader and administration, and I will not tolerate any form of de-edification nor insubordination. Unite behind his vision for this forum, and stop the bickering. I am ashamed of what I have seen.

 

[Zebestian]

Xyphien is our leader and administration, and I will not tolerate any form of de-edification nor insubordination. Unite behind his vision for this forum, and stop the bickering. I am ashamed of what I have seen.

[SARCASM]Yes, exactly. Everyone, stop behaving like your opinion actually matters. Stop discussing so we don't make any progress. Follow that one guy who's apparently always right and doesn't need to listen to others since he pays for this site! Just agree to everything he says, no matter how nonsensical it might be![/SARCASM]
Might I remind you, @MinisterJay that exactly this "bickering" as you call it is necessary to make significant progress? Without discussion and debate development of this forum would very quickly come to a hold. We have always been polite. We have always been respectful. There was no "insubordination" considering we're all equal in this discussion. One man alone can and will not be able to run a project like this on his judgement alone. If your vision for this forum truly is one where everything an admin says is law, no matter how little sense it might make, then I'd be one of the first people to pack my stuff and leave as soon as this vision becomes reality. I grew up in a country that was once ruled in such a manner and we all know how poorly that ended. [/rant]

 

[MinisterJay]

@Kaimen. He explained why he was doing, and answered everybody's concern. Then his answers were questioned and re-questioned. @eivl , @Xyphien , and I know what it is to defend the rights and freedom's of others, and you dare question the wanting to defend this forum's fun focused vision, by not putting more and more restrictions. And when there is disagreement you desire to quit? Build up some back bone. In Democracies, when the Houses propose something, and it gets vetoed, that just don't quit; they work with the leadership, and follow the vision that was set.

 

[Zebestian]

@Kaimen. He explained why he was doing, and answered everybody's concern. Then his answers were questioned and re-questioned.

Have you properly followed the discussion? We were going around in circles most of the time because Xyphien ignored most of the points that were made and simply responded to those he had a response for. So of course we had to re-question his answers - because he chose to not properly respond to our arguments.

@eivl, @Xyphien , and I know what it is to defend the rights and freedom's of others, and you dare question the wanting to defend this forum's fun focused vision, by not putting more and more restrictions. And when there is disagreement you desire to quit? Build up some back bone.

Well, lookie here, you're doing the same thing Xyphien did and conveniently ignore what I actually said. What, I ask you, has putting one guy that must not be questioned in charge to do with defending rights and freedoms? By saying we should all listen to what Xyphien says you take away my rights and freedoms all the same! And I never said I would quit due to disagreement. I would quit when this forum effectively turns into a dictatorship of the administration which is what you implied with your post before! I believe I'm showing enough back bone here, thank you very much.

 

[Amysaurus]

@Kaimen @MinisterJay: This is getting off topic, and too mean-spirited. Please take any further arguing into PM. :c

@ Jay:
I understand your concern here. I'm not sure when or why the rules ended up changed today, but I think it's something that should wait until this discussion is mostly settled down. All I added to the rules was one that mentions avoiding controversial topics outside of game design, not taking control of staff matters, and then mentioning how to take care of issues with staff. Anything else was just clarifying what was up there before.

As far as the arguing and all of that goes, that's more or less why I made a new thread. I think the sudden switch to only discussing resources got us all a bit too heated, so I wanted to clear the air a bit.

@Kaimen: I agree that, unfortunately, bickering has gotten the most progress on major issues. It's nothing we intend to have happen, but it's a natural progression when we all have different points of view.

@Everyone: Please keep on the topic of discussing our forum rules. Thanks!

 

[Xyphien]

Alright everyone, I will be locking this thread. I will not be updating the rules, as @sage and I find that they are more than acceptable, and do not need to be changed. I appreciate y'all voicing your opinions, however this is something I will not be changing.