Question about how things can work out with choices.

[Wiskersthefif]

So I am curious about how drastically choices early in a game can effect the remainder of the game. For instance, if the player were to make a choice to go to work early in the game, could the remainder of the game be completely different than if they were to decide to quit their job and see the world? Like, if they decide to stay at their job, the remainder of the game is a drama, but if they decide to quit their job; the remainder of the game is an adventure game with combat and what not. Also, if this is possible, how many different stories like that could I have in a game? And how complex could I make the early choices, like, if they decide whether or not to feed their cat, make breakfast instead of going out for it, exercise, etc. Those choices could impact whether or not they are late for work, which could change how their situation unfolds. Sorry for all my questions, I am the kind of writer that has to plan literally everything out before I begin something. Thank you in advance, Java Wizards!

 

[Zebestian]

From what I have played, it seems like the earlier a choice comes up in a game, the more it impacts future events. However, you cannot generalize something like this that easily. It depends on what the choice is, how the story progresses, how the story is laid out, etc.
If you want an example of a game that takes decision making very seriously and handles it eccellently, I suggest you take a look at "Radiant Historia". In that game, there are specific choice points that impact future events and can eventually even lead to a dead end.
Maybe a writer here knows a little more about that. I'm just going off of games I played. :)

 

[Wiskersthefif]

From what I have played, it seems like the earlier a choice comes up in a game, the more it impacts future events. However, you cannot generalize something like this that easily. It depends on what the choice is, how the story progresses, how the story is laid out, etc.
If you want an example of a game that takes decision making very seriously and handles it eccellently, I suggest you take a look at "Radiant Historia". In that game, there are specific choice points that impact future events and can eventually even lead to a dead end.
Maybe a writer here knows a little more about that. I'm just going off of games I played. :)

huh, I will check it out. I was wondering if the game can be entirely different though.

 

[Zebestian]

I was wondering if the game can be entirely different though.

If you mean, having an entirely different game for every choice you make, then... well, that's gonna be one heck of an effort to plan, write and execute. But I can see a game splitting into two (more would be too effortful IMO) entirely different experiences depending on a choice you make during the course of the game. I don't know of any such games though.

 

[Wiskersthefif]

If you mean, having an entirely different game for every choice you make, then... well, that's gonna be one heck of an effort to plan, write and execute. But I can see a game splitting into two (more would be too effortful IMO) entirely different experiences depending on a choice you make during the course of the game. I don't know of any such games though.

Ah, well the writing and planning side to it would not be very difficult, just rather time consuming. I am worried about the technical aspect to it though....I tried learning Java, but I just don't have the time to learn it and write the plot, dialogue, etc for a game :(

 

[cav_dan]

Hey, you don't need to worry even a bit about Javascript (not Java) programming when using RPG Maker. All game choices should be stored via Switches and Variables, which can be set through Events. Those are de building blocks of every RPG Maker game, and programming can be used for low-level enhancements (a different Battle System and whatnot).

As for the writing aspect, I always prefer lots of small choices over big ones. Try Fallout 2, for example (well, 3 and 4 also do this, but I think F2 has better writing).

In Fallout 2, your stats and skills determined if you would talk like an idiot or have elaborate opinions on discussions. In the first Fallout you could defeat the last boss of the game through high Charisma and dialogue.

Every move you did had a Karma counter that went up and down as you progress. Stole money? that's less Karma. Gave it to the Poor man who lost his son? That's more Karma. You could be a soundrel, stealing and breaking into everywhere, and still be somewhat good. You had reputation in each city, and that determined if some quests where open to you, or if people would try to kill you on sight.

Again, that's just my opinion: having a good portion of the story closed if you make a few choices can be fun. Try Front Mission 3rd, where a single choice at the first scene of the game dictates if you're in either side of an international war. Also, this:

 

[Wiskersthefif]

Hey, you don't need to worry even a bit about Javascript (not Java) programming when using RPG Maker. All game choices should be stored via Switches and Variables, which can be set through Events. Those are de building blocks of every RPG Maker game, and programming can be used for low-level enhancements (a different Battle System and whatnot).

As for the writing aspect, I always prefer lots of small choices over big ones. Try Fallout 2, for example (well, 3 and 4 also do this, but I think F2 has better writing).

In Fallout 2, your stats and skills determined if you would talk like an idiot or have elaborate opinions on discussions. In the first Fallout you could defeat the last boss of the game through high Charisma and dialogue.

Every move you did had a Karma counter that went up and down as you progress. Stole money? that's less Karma. Gave it to the Poor man who lost his son? That's more Karma. You could be a soundrel, stealing and breaking into everywhere, and still be somewhat good. You had reputation in each city, and that determined if some quests where open to you, or if people would try to kill you on sight.

Again, that's just my opinion: having a good portion of the story closed if you make a few choices can be fun. Try Front Mission 3rd, where a single choice at the first scene of the game dictates if you're in either side of an international war. Also, this:

Huh, that is really interesting. Do you have any idea if there is a way to employ a "Karma Counter" (maybe to take the game in a completely different direction if you fall on a specific part of the spectrum) in RPG Maker MV, or would it require commissioning someone to program it in with java?

 

[HotfireLegend]

JavaScript, not Java!!

Also, the more the game branches, the exponentially more work it is to make.

 

[Wiskersthefif]

JavaScript, not Java!!

Also, the more the game branches, the exponentially more work it is to make.

Oh, right. So, imagine you wanted to create four completely different stories; I would need to commission a java script person to make a plug in for me? Or could I create a switch from an event to take the player down a different path?

 

[cav_dan]

You don't need JS for branching stories. Start with a very simple scenario: a guy wants an apple.

When you talk to him, he explains his need, right? "I want an apple!". So the player takes an apple in a chest, and you activate a switch: GotApple. After that, you can just make the guy say "Thanks for the apple!" every time your player talks to him.

Karma could be easily implemented using a Variable, which is a number. It can vary between -9999 and 9999 (i think, you can test it out). Then you'll just adjust it accordingly. If your Karma is -10, you can make the apple guy attack the player, and so on...

This principle, as I said, is applied to everything in RPG Maker. You don't need to learn programming or comission someone to make a good RPG Maker game (any version). All you need is in the program itself, albeit with a few limitations we can circumvent using scripts.

There are a lot of great tutorials on Events that can help you out, and Events are mostly version agnostic, so you can find great tutorials on VX or Ace and still learn everything you need to use MV.

 

[eivl]

I would not use variables to store karma, i would extend the player object So it becomes a stat for the player just like hp mp or exp.

You would add karma with a script call from events, and you can use karma to check for events just like variables.

But all this can be done with variables, but it would just be more tidious to do.

 

[HotfireLegend]

Yeah, this isn't something you need scripts for - scripts are for when you want to deviate from the traditional engine such as by showing busts on save files etc

 

[cav_dan]

I would not use variables to store karma, i would extend the player object So it becomes a stat for the player just like hp mp or exp.

You would add karma with a script call from events, and you can use karma to check for events just like variables.

But all this can be done with variables, but it would just be more tidious to do.

Ok, I agree karma would be nicer implemented this way if you wanted to show it to the player.

However, I don't think that needs to be the case. Just inform the player: "You lose some karma". I mean, you don't need to show everything to the player, maybe he can feel the changes some other way.

Also, yes it would be tedious to create a karma counter in events. I did a clock once... was not fun =P

 

[eivl]

Ok, I agree karma would be nicer implemented this way if you wanted to show it to the player.

However, I don't think that needs to be the case. Just inform the player: "You lose some karma". I mean, you don't need to show everything to the player, maybe he can feel the changes some other way.

The player (the actual person that plays the game) will not see any difference between an event / variable implementation of this system.
The creator (guy that makes the game) will save a lot of time and make less mistakes with the plugin method.

If the idea is to change the default arc based on previous selections you will need all the help you can get just to make it work.

have anyone talked about "sin curve" and "expanding tree" method of making multiple choices for gameplay?
[doublepost=1448370850,1448369053][/doublepost]If you make your choices matter your whole game will have multiple paths to get to 1 specific ending.
It is like a binary tree in programming.

You start on top and on the bottom you have multiple endings.

or you can have the illusion of multiple endings by converging the player after every choice so that it does not really matter until you get to the end

good game makers make a hybrid of these two for every cycle of choice you have an expanding tree.
I know of only one game that have ever made a full multiple ending game where choices matter, forgot the name, butterfly effect kind a name.

well.. lost my strain of thought..... what where we talking about?

 

[cav_dan]

I don't think the ending is that important, but it's hard to argue that structured narratives won't help a lot in case you want a Mass Effect kind of branching narrative. Even though ME did suffer in the end of the journey.

Is it Until Down you're thinking of?

Also, you can instead of a branching single story, make a lot of smaller branching stories the player can partake in. Like Elder Scrolls and Fallout. Those had very closed endings, maybe a choice or two in the last mission but mostly what you did only mattered to those you influenced directly.

Also worth checking Always Sometimes Monsters. I never finished it, but looked like a nice few choices could be made along the way.

 

[Wiskersthefif]

The player (the actual person that plays the game) will not see any difference between an event / variable implementation of this system.
The creator (guy that makes the game) will save a lot of time and make less mistakes with the plugin method.

If the idea is to change the default arc based on previous selections you will need all the help you can get just to make it work.

have anyone talked about "sin curve" and "expanding tree" method of making multiple choices for gameplay?
[doublepost=1448370850,1448369053][/doublepost]If you make your choices matter your whole game will have multiple paths to get to 1 specific ending.
It is like a binary tree in programming.

You start on top and on the bottom you have multiple endings.

or you can have the illusion of multiple endings by converging the player after every choice so that it does not really matter until you get to the end

good game makers make a hybrid of these two for every cycle of choice you have an expanding tree.
I know of only one game that have ever made a full multiple ending game where choices matter, forgot the name, butterfly effect kind a name.

well.. lost my strain of thought..... what where we talking about?

Yes, I would certainly be using the expanding tree method, and I was certainly imagining needing a plug in of some kind, but creating some a plug in like that would be possible, yes?

I don't think the ending is that important, but it's hard to argue that structured narratives won't help a lot in case you want a Mass Effect kind of branching narrative. Even though ME did suffer in the end of the journey.

Is it Until Down you're thinking of?

Also, you can instead of a branching single story, make a lot of smaller branching stories the player can partake in. Like Elder Scrolls and Fallout. Those had very closed endings, maybe a choice or two in the last mission but mostly what you did only mattered to those you influenced directly.

Also worth checking Always Sometimes Monsters. I never finished it, but looked like a nice few choices could be made along the way.

I was thinking more along the lines of early choices completely changing the remainder of the game. Like, if you decide to not go to work, you can choose to explore the city instead. Which leads to the player exploring the city and making choices to effect the remainder of their game, for instance, if they talk to an NPC and decide to pursue a romantic relationship, the remainder of the game becomes about that romance (of course there would only be like one NPC that does this, meaning you can't just do that with any NPC). They might stumble upon a door to a parallel universe, making the game become a more typical RPG (with fighting a battle system and whatnot), the player might discover a mystery about something in the city; making the rest of the game a kind of "figure it out" kind of thing, etc. Or hell, you can decide to go to work and something happens, influencing how the remainder of the game unfolds. I know it sounds ambitious, but the writing/plotting itself wouldn't be much of an issue, I am just trying to figure out the best way to go about this.

 

[eivl]

A plugin makes it easier to mange, you are still just changing a variable number.

 

[CynicSyndrome]

going back to what you were saying about the player keeping his job and the game being a drama, or quitting and the game is suddenly an adventure. I'm working on my first game now, but even I know that that's like making several games out of one game. you would need to divide your limited switches and variables amongst the different games therein. I mean sure some would cross over, but most wouldn't. dividing them up means less potential for content in each game scenario.

 

[PhilteredKhaos]

I think the limit is near 1000 for each switches and variables, but (with VX ace at least) there are scripts that break that and allow 9999 or more.

It would be an exponential amount of work to make 2 games out of 1. You can do it though, with switches and variables. I am doing a game right now that plays different based on which character you choose to play. One is trigger happy, the other is logical and methodical. There is some overlap, but I am doing a lot of maps that will only be seen in one story line.

It is entirely possible to do what you are asking with just switches, as far as I can tell. After every branch, a switch will turn on or stay off, depending, and you can have the story go where you want.