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Plugin Pixel Movement

Green Dragon

Villager
Xy$
0.00
Yeah, Hudell is quite big in our community, and I'm actually using quite a few of his plugins, all are neat and solid ones. I also just checked your last video, and saw Galv's one, he has said multiple times that he won't ever support any kind of plugins for member following function, so I am not surprised that the followers in the video didn't follow you. Also, it's good to see your plugin's progressing nicely, although the follower AI is still a little wonky. But everything is looking good so far. Tonight I'm planning to test your plugin the second time. This time with a lot of plugins to exam the compatibility.
 

Xilefian

Adventurer
Xy$
0.00
The follower AI is working as intended. If you are referring to the walking across the world to mount the vehicle then that's intended behaviour, the alternative is to have them vanish (I may even add that as an option). If you're referring to the jump-gather behaviour, that is default RPG Maker behaviour; I am considering enhancing it so they won't try to gather if they are too far away.

If you think the AI is a little wonky, then I think it's fair to say more work is probably required. As I coded this behaviour intentionally I may now be blind to how "wrong" it looks, so this is probably a sign I need some suggestions on how to solve issues that you see.

3rd party Plugin compatibility will be a focus after 1.0 release, but it would be helpful to start a compatibility list. I have plans to make it compatible with certain Plugins, namely the Yep TileD map Plugin.
 

Green Dragon

Villager
Xy$
0.00
Is followers stuck behind walls or objects intended too? I am assuming that was the default following function which you haven't touched it yet, so they got stuck?
But keep doing as your plan, those are things that I think is not too important to look at right now until you get this plugin finished.
 

Xilefian

Adventurer
Xy$
0.00
Is followers stuck behind walls or objects intended too? I am assuming that was the default following function which you haven't touched it yet, so they got stuck?
But keep doing as your plan, those are things that I think is not too important to look at right now until you get this plugin finished.
Getting stuck behind walls is completely intended, that is not default behaviour though (default behaviour is to never allow an opportunity for them to get stuck, which doesn't look as good for pixel-movement, see OrangeMovement's followers for an example of why this looks bad).

I did originally have path-finding AI, however it never felt "right", they always felt "too smart". What happens is they will get stuck, and then when you far away enough they will "magically" teleport to an area where they are not stuck and then continue following you.

I'll mark the behaviour as "won't fix", because this is intended design, however I'll keep the option of adding the path-finding AI back-in open. Ideally we'd have both options as a setting.

Generally, I want to avoid path-finding AI because there's circumstances where it will fail no matter what, such as if an event blocks a door-way between the player and their followers (then they'll get stuck again, so getting stuck is unavoidable). I removed the mouse-movement path-finding for a similar reason (would still get stuck when events moved to block the path), as well as because that also didn't "feel right" - felt like you'd click on the screen then the player would walk in a random direction, rather than towards where you wanted them to go.

EDIT: I think what I'll do is make the path-finding AI a new Plugin by itself that works with both vanilla and Altimit Movement. That seems like a good middle-ground.
 
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Green Dragon

Villager
Xy$
0.00
Gotcha. Having option to toggle path finding on and off is a nice touch. I don't know how "smart" it is by your definition but for an AI getting stuck by npc, wall or anything is still pretty dumb to me, lol, unless the path is one way and totally blocked. Did you mention your own AI or MV default one? Seems like I'm getting confused between mouse clicking's path finding and follower's.

Anyways, I tested your plugin with tons of others, at first it'd got conflicted with SumRandmDude's Restrict Movement Directions but after placing yours beneath his, all is fine now. The only leftover issue is, this seems not to work properly with Yanfly's Foot Step Sound plugin, as the performance will drop drastically and it generates a lot more unnecessary sound which sounded really weird, but I guess the issue itself is more on Yanfly side?
 

Xilefian

Adventurer
Xy$
0.00
I don't know how "smart" it is by your definition but for an AI getting stuck by npc, wall or anything is still pretty dumb to me, lol, unless the path is one way and totally blocked. Did you mention your own AI or MV default one? Seems like I'm getting confused between mouse clicking's path finding and follower's.
I think you've misunderstood me; I choose to have stupid AI and not smart AI. The reason is because smart AI was "too smart" and ended up being distracting and confusing to witness when it activated.

So for followers, if a door closed that trapped the follower at the back, with the current stupid AI the follower would just walk into the wall and you'd leave them behind (they'll teleport and catch up later). When I had complex smart AI with path-finding as soon as the follower would get trapped, they'd turn around and walk in the other direction because they found a "better" path, thing is the player would be walking along in one direction, then suddenly their party member is forced to walk in the other direction; the player will notice this because the follower no-longer looks like it is following, it looks like it has gained intelligence and has wandered off. It's distracting for the player to witness and it is a surprise that could threaten the player's sense of control over their party members; it is purely a game design issue related to the player psychology (expectation management).

I also encountered this weird game design issue when it came to mouse-input, where clicking on the other side of the wall may surprise the player when their character walks in the opposite direction to the wall they just clicked at because their AI was smart enough to find that better route; however the player wanted to go "right", not "left", so this isn't great feedback. I know default MV has some path-finding, however this is grid-based (and is incompatible, as a result) and the AI feels better for a grid-based world due to the touch-points not being very accurate to begin with. Default MV mouse-movement feels more like a "suggestion" that the AI needs to resolve; For Altimit Movement, the mouse-movement (and touch) is more tactile as the response is instant and the player has far more direct-control, so tapping feels less like a "suggestion" and more like a "command", for the AI to walk in the opposite direction feels like it violated that command and like the game is telling the player that the "AI knows best", which is a #1 no-no in game design.

I understand that people would still like to have smarter AI - and I've got loads of nice code already written for this - so it would likely become and extension Plugin. The extension Plugin will demonstrate these game design issues that I encountered.


For the case of conflicting Plugins; no Plugin is at fault. I think I know why the foot-steps freak out; for Altimit Movement 1 step can be as small as 1 pixel (sometimes even smaller!) so when the player moves across 1-tile, there can be up-to-and-beyond 48 individual steps, which would cause foot-step Plugins based on player-steps to activate up-to-and-beyond 48 times each tile.

I absolutely do not want to do "Plugin-specific compatibility patches", I learned the hard way with my event-touch-triggers Plugin that Plugin-specific compatibility is insane to manage and will eventually be the death of a Plugin. I think the best thing to do is find a way that makes both Plugins work nicely, without having to "detect" if either Plugin is installed. This can be done in either Alimit Movement or Foot Step Sound.

What I think I'll do is remake some select Plugins to be compatible with both Altimit Movement and vanilla MV. Right now I'm thinking of remaking Galv's character animations Plugin because there's an incompatibility with that right now (and it has features I wanted to add to Altimit Movement anyway, might as well make it an extension Plugin).
 

Green Dragon

Villager
Xy$
0.00
Yeah, I know you've been using the dumb AI as it is intended function as you said. And since I've never seen your "smart" AI so I was assuming things. But is it that distracting though? I'm curious because even you say that but it might look nice and interesting to someone else.
tapping feels less like a "suggestion" and more like a "command", for the AI to walk in the opposite direction feels like it violated that command and like the game is telling the player that the "AI knows best", which is a #1 no-no in game design.
You are spot on with this. That and the default mouse click path finding never feel right, they are actually absurd,
so it would likely become and extension Plugin
More options are always better, lol.
for Altimit Movement 1 step can be as small as 1 pixel (sometimes even smaller!) so when the player moves across 1-tile, there can be up-to-and-beyond 48 individual steps, which would cause foot-step Plugins based on player-steps to activate up-to-and-beyond 48 times each tile.
True, I kind of figure this out. And about the incompatibility issue I mean, with the whole long list of various types of plugins (150+), and only one inflicting with yours (not even that big of a deal), that is pretty impressive.
 

Ordmaer

Villager
Xy$
0.00
This plugin has been far better than any I have downloaded, it works with alot of the other plugins I have which is great, however, the game lags tremendously when the plugin YEP_EventChasePlayer comes into effect, where an event detects and chases the player. Not sure how I can fix this since I am but a rookie at MV atm.
 
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