My Frustration.

[Aisling Starr]

Hello there.


I just want to share with you a bit of my Frustration when it came to me and trying to recruit other people for Garando (no, this isn't me trying to get people to help me, not in this forum post anyway, I'm just explaining why it's frustrating). Here's a conversation that me and a certain person were having:








Me: Just answering your question you left on my profile (having trouble using this website. lol)

I can't find help because I'm having trouble explaining what the game is going to be about, and I don't want to give too much away. I was told by a moderator that I had to explain myself (or my project, rather) and say what it's about. I also had to explain what I specifically need.



I just needed four different people.

One person experienced in creating resources (sprites and furniture, mainly).

One person experienced in music they themselves make.

One person experienced in creating art (meaning pictures that I could use for certain cutscenes).

One person experienced with Javascript to help me out with making certain scenes. This is my first time using RPG Maker MV and I'm currently working on a demo-ish sandbox, just to get my practice in.

I don't want to give too much away, and people (I suppose) aren't extremely interested if they don't have all the info about the game.




Person: I'd probably help, but I have no skills you need. I think the thing is, knowing certain things about the project (for example, the setting and some basics to storyline to figure out certain things such as the mood for different music and such) is kind of important to know how to make assets that will actually be helpful for the project. That said...I haven't looked for help really either. I should, but I'm a control freak. xD


Me: Which is another one of my flaws. xD I'm also a control freak. I want the project -- my first project -- to go EXACTLY how I want it to.

The thing is, there will be multiple settings. The storyline is a bit long (It's not going to be a written out storyline, since I think of new things to implement all the time. I know how it's going to go, I don't know how to explain it. It's more like....I know how I want it to be, but unless it's already done, I don't know EXACTLY how it's going to go, y'know?


Person: I know these feelings so well as a writer. This is basically all my projects I think of in a nutshell.
I really do hope to make my game workout though. I hope yours does too!


Me: Thank you, I hope yours works out as well. ^^ Thanks for the talk! Haha.


Person: I'd be happy to talk anytime. I'm always here to help with the little I can~ :)


Me: Quick question:

Any idea for where I /can/ find the people I'm looking for? :o I know I saw someone on my page say they could help, but I'm still waiting on a response from them.


Person: Perhaps look at the forum for people /offering/ services. Lurk them a bit and find some that seem to fit your needs, then try to talk to them. It could be easier than waiting for someone to see your page yourself. Not really sure.


Me: I guess you're right about that. Thank you very much for the help.


Person: I'm glad if it was actually helpful. :P




The frustration kicks in when I go to said forums and I only find paid freelancers. I don't want to have to talk about what the game is about and then my idea is possibly stolen. I don't want there to be some possible duplicate of my story, my game, or anything of the sort, which is why I didn't describe what my game would be about in detail, unless i'm sure you're onboard with the project.


I'd like to ask for help, in some way, on figuring out how to word what it is about without having to have my idea possibly stolen or duplicated.


I'd also like to ask if there's another place for me to find people who can get on board with my project, other than this website.




Thanks for listening nonetheless.

 

[Dad3353]

@Aisling Starr ...

Disclaimer: I'm an old git that understands nothing about the fineries of video game creation, team recruitment and such. That being said...
I think there are several flaws in your reasoning, but could be wrong.
Firstly, I'd say that, if you want to catch fish, you need bait. You are the one wanting to attract folks to the project, so there'll necessarily be something to bring 'em in, or, at least, attract their attention, and incite them to become enthusiastic enough to contact you. A veil of secrecy is, I feel, unlikely to arouse this in any but the most curious of folks.
Secondly, I very much doubt that any freelance pixel artist, or musician, is interested in poaching any Game concept; it's not their speciality. Almost by definition, they're more interested in participating in a Project with what they can best contribute, and (probably...) don't have, themselves, all the other component skills, time or resources to 'pirate' a Project.
The whole Game philosophy is not yet, by your own admission, finalised in all its detail (no bad thing, maybe...), so a sketchy description of the theme, the style of play, the anticipated playing time, the demography targeted... As much information as possible to pique the curiosity of those reading your request for assistance... That's, in my view, a far better approach than holding your cards so close to your chest.
If it helps, I compose my own music for my own (modest...) needs. If you can describe what it is you're after, I could try to come up with something for your approbation..? My rates are reasonable (I do everything I do for free..!), and you may not be impressed, but if it takes your Project further...
Good luck with the Project, of course; hope this helps...

 

[Zebestian]

The frustration kicks in when I go to said forums and I only find paid freelancers. I don't want to have to talk about what the game is about and then my idea is possibly stolen. I don't want there to be some possible duplicate of my story, my game, or anything of the sort, which is why I didn't describe what my game would be about in detail, unless i'm sure you're onboard with the project.


I'd like to ask for help, in some way, on figuring out how to word what it is about without having to have my idea possibly stolen or duplicated.


I'd also like to ask if there's another place for me to find people who can get on board with my project, other than this website.

If you're looking for artists working for you for free you're not gonna be very lucky. And as for paid work: as one of those "horrible, horrible" () paid freelancers let me tell you that any self-respecting, somewhat professional artist won't steal your ideas and use them as their own. Freelancers are happy to be of service and more than happy that they're making money. They have bigger problems to worry about than stealing your ideas. That said, describing what exactly you need in detail is extremely important to us artists - we wanna help as much as we can after all.

I can understand your fears though. I mean, most of my music is on my Soundcloud profile - that includes commissions I have made exclusively for my respective clients. I was told that it's incedibly easy to rip music off of Soundcloud and use it in your game or whatever. Am I scared of people stealing my work? Of course, everyone is, that possibility always exists. However, it is very rare that theft like that actually happens. It's a risk you'll have to take if you want to make games. That's just how it is.

 

[Lore]

Just adding to what @Dad3353 and @Kaimen have said, remember that it's your idea, and it could change further down the line. What if you thought of a better scene for a particular portion of your story? While fear of having your idea/s stolen is fine, and expected, you don't want it to consume you, otherwise you'll never get anything done. In any case, it is why whenever I put up a game concept, I always put "subject to change", meaning that at any time, if my original idea doesn't pan out, it can change to something that suits the game better.

Good luck with everything. :)

 

[MinisterJay]

I have a few questions for you, @Aisling Starr ?

Have you completed making a game with RPG Maker MV or previous editions, length of game not mattering?
Have you thought of offering royalties to those that provide varying types of assistance?
Would you be willing to provide some of the storyline to attract a crew?
Do you have a dialogue proofer?

Thank you,
Jay

 

[Aisling Starr]

If you're looking for artists working for you for free you're not gonna be very lucky. And as for paid work: as one of those "horrible, horrible" () paid freelancers let me tell you that any self-respecting, somewhat professional artist won't steal your ideas and use them as their own. Freelancers are happy to be of service and more than happy that they're making money. They have bigger problems to worry about than stealing your ideas. That said, describing what exactly you need in detail is extremely important to us artists - we wanna help as much as we can after all.

I can understand your fears though. I mean, most of my music is on my Soundcloud profile - that includes commissions I have made exclusively for my respective clients. I was told that it's incedibly easy to rip music off of Soundcloud and use it in your game or whatever. Am I scared of people stealing my work? Of course, everyone is, that possibility always exists. However, it is very rare that theft like that actually happens. It's a risk you'll have to take if you want to make games. That's just how it is.

I suppose that's understandable. I really am terrified of having to risk it, seeing as though, in the past, I've had my ideas stolen and then people try to make it seem as though I was making a big deal out of nothing. I don't want that to happen again. If it's a risk I'll have to take though, I suppose I'll have to deal with it.

For explaining in detail...I really don't know what I'm suppose to be explaining. I'm really not all that experienced in game creation, which is why I was also looking for someone who was experienced in MV (and Java Script), not to work on the team (if they didn't want to), but to help me out personally. I've looked up tutorials, and some of them really did help, but others were just a mess when it came to explaining.

It's been also difficult for me to find work myself and having to get money for myself, which is why I was looking for people who were willing to work for free. That being said, it's over 100% understandable that my luck is going to be crap when it comes to finding people who are willing to help, even if there's a chance that they will not be paid.

Thank you for taking the time to even reply to me, it means a lot.
[doublepost=1476045153,1476044966][/doublepost]

Just adding to what @Dad3353 and @Kaimen have said, remember that it's your idea, and it could change further down the line. What if you thought of a better scene for a particular portion of your story? While fear of having your idea/s stolen is fine, and expected, you don't want it to consume you, otherwise you'll never get anything done. In any case, it is why whenever I put up a game concept, I always put "subject to change", meaning that at any time, if my original idea doesn't pan out, it can change to something that suits the game better.

Good luck with everything. :)

So I should just put "Subject to change"?

There's another issue (not with the "subject to change" part),

I don't exactly know /how/ I want it to pan out. I mean, I know how, it's just that I don't know how I specifically want it to pan out.

How would I write out what the game will be about specifically?


Regardless, thank you for taking the time to respond. It means the world to me. ^^
[doublepost=1476046003][/doublepost]

I have a few questions for you, @Aisling Starr ?

Have you completed making a game with RPG Maker MV or previous editions, length of game not mattering?
Have you thought of offering royalties to those that provide varying types of assistance?
Would you be willing to provide some of the storyline to attract a crew?
Do you have a dialogue proofer?

Thank you,
Jay

No, I haven't completed a game. I just started on a sandbox, trying to practice how to even use the program. I had to stop for a bit, due to me having rl problems with stress, but I just recently started up again. MV is the only one I've used (since I was told it was the easiest) and I've been trying to get help with scripting and such, since I couldn't really get a certain format to work (I've posted about this ) . Here is an example of one of my sandboxes (download).

Royalties? I haven't thought about that. What do you have in mind?

I would, and I've actually thought about it. I don't think I'll actually attract anyone any other way. :P

No, I don't...(And I don't know what that is either. Sorry, I'm a complete noob.)



Thank you for replying to my post, it means a lot to me. :3
[doublepost=1476046257][/doublepost]

@Aisling Starr ...

Disclaimer: I'm an old git that understands nothing about the fineries of video game creation, team recruitment and such. That being said...
I think there are several flaws in your reasoning, but could be wrong.
Firstly, I'd say that, if you want to catch fish, you need bait. You are the one wanting to attract folks to the project, so there'll necessarily be something to bring 'em in, or, at least, attract their attention, and incite them to become enthusiastic enough to contact you. A veil of secrecy is, I feel, unlikely to arouse this in any but the most curious of folks.
Secondly, I very much doubt that any freelance pixel artist, or musician, is interested in poaching any Game concept; it's not their speciality. Almost by definition, they're more interested in participating in a Project with what they can best contribute, and (probably...) don't have, themselves, all the other component skills, time or resources to 'pirate' a Project.
The whole Game philosophy is not yet, by your own admission, finalised in all its detail (no bad thing, maybe...), so a sketchy description of the theme, the style of play, the anticipated playing time, the demography targeted... As much information as possible to pique the curiosity of those reading your request for assistance... That's, in my view, a far better approach than holding your cards so close to your chest.
If it helps, I compose my own music for my own (modest...) needs. If you can describe what it is you're after, I could try to come up with something for your approbation..? My rates are reasonable (I do everything I do for free..!), and you may not be impressed, but if it takes your Project further...
Good luck with the Project, of course; hope this helps...

Reasonable enough. I'll see what I can do in trying to lure in an audience.


As for offering to help, I will consider it! Anything helps, really. I'll let you know!


Thank you for taking the time to respond. You respond to all of my posts, and I thank you for that. ^^

 

[Dad3353]

@Aisling Starr ...

Well, as a 'sandbox', I've seen (and created myself..!) far worse. I enjoyed a potter around in a strange 'world', and 'died' a couple of times. I've yet to find out just which book to give (if any..?), and, like a real dummy, neglected to save before knocking on the door..! I'll try again; it was fun.
Yes, there are errors in there (Yes, I know; it's a sandbox...), but it all worked pretty well. If that's how you're going about learning about MV, I'd say you're on the right track. Where do you want to go from here, in general..? If it's not too ambitious, you've quite enough skills to get a coherent Game going. One cannot make an Aston Martin from Lego bricks, but even 'standard' MV can do some splendid things, if there's a bit of imagination applied. Do you have any other sandboxes of the sort..? What is your biggest, attainable, obstacle, and how to go about reducing it to dust..?

 

[Zebestian]

@Aisling Starr
Everyone has to take risks in life - that's just how it is. I've invested hundreds of [currency] in music equipment and virtual instruments and guess how much of that I've made back so far by composing music for games. If your answer is "not even 10%" or something like that then you guessed correct! And if you're still iffy about it - don't see it as taking risks, see it as making an investment.

When I said "describing what exactly you need" I was talking about when you commission and artist or composer with something for your game. If you want a character, knowing how the character looks and what they are like personality-wise is a great help for an artist. Same with, say, music for an area in your game. Knowing what it looks like and what purpose it has in your story and what background and lore plays in is a great help for a composer all the same.
If you're looking for someone to explain things to you, you should specify that and make a post about it, asking for help. When it comes to teaching people many "experts" might not even charge you any money.

Speaking of money, not having any is no excuse to demand artist work for you for free. Everyone in this business has a hard time and valuing an artist's work is incredibly important - so important even that I can't stress it enough. I'm not criticising you, I'm just saying don't expect people to work for free just because you have no money. And definitely don't demand free work, that's rude. :)

@MinisterJay
About that royalties thing: no. If you want work done by an artist, ALWAYS pay them upfront. Don't expect them to take the risk and possibly get nothing if the game doesn't sell well, if it's gonna be sold or even finished at all. Many artists, including me, won't work on royalty basis just because it is essentially the same as working for free. Now, I understand that if that game sells like, say, Undertale a certain percentage of royalties would be nice. But not every game will sell well. Not every game will be finished. And not every artist will take the risk of a game not being finished. Artists in this business need the money - don't make them wait for it. To me, it's a matter of respecting an artist's work. Wait until you have the money and pay them.

 

[Aisling Starr]

@Aisling Starr ...

Well, as a 'sandbox', I've seen (and created myself..!) far worse. I enjoyed a potter around in a strange 'world', and 'died' a couple of times. I've yet to find out just which book to give (if any..?), and, like a real dummy, neglected to save before knocking on the door..! I'll try again; it was fun.
Yes, there are errors in there (Yes, I know; it's a sandbox...), but it all worked pretty well. If that's how you're going about learning about MV, I'd say you're on the right track. Where do you want to go from here, in general..? If it's not too ambitious, you've quite enough skills to get a coherent Game going. One cannot make an Aston Martin from Lego bricks, but even 'standard' MV can do some splendid things, if there's a bit of imagination applied. Do you have any other sandboxes of the sort..? What is your biggest, attainable, obstacle, and how to go about reducing it to dust..?

So far, the biggest problem I've encountered is the one we spoke about before, the triggered events (this thread). I've also have had problems with obtaining items (making it so you only obtain an item where you got it from once and only once) and making it so the chest stays open. Music/Sound effects has also been an issue (I don't know how to change/cut off certain music). I'm also trying to figure out how to make cutscenes and make it so a certain map looks different after you do a certain task in the game.
[doublepost=1476056209,1476056028][/doublepost]

So far, the biggest problem I've encountered is the one we spoke about before, the triggered events (this thread). I've also have had problems with obtaining items (making it so you only obtain an item where you got it from once and only once) and making it so the chest stays open. Music/Sound effects has also been an issue (I don't know how to change/cut off certain music). I'm also trying to figure out how to make cutscenes and make it so a certain map looks different after you do a certain task in the game.

Forgot to mention, I'm mainly looking up tutorials on how to fix these things. I know this isn't anywhere NEAR the entire beginning of the game, let alone everything I need, but I know with enough hard work, it'll work out just fine. (Since you're checking out the game, might wanna check out the kitchen). I'm also in search of better resources, the ones I have now are great, I just want something that looks a bit more...dark. More suitable to what I'm trying to put together.

 

[Lore]

So I should just put "Subject to change"?

There's another issue (not with the "subject to change" part),

I don't exactly know /how/ I want it to pan out. I mean, I know how, it's just that I don't know how I specifically want it to pan out.

How would I write out what the game will be about specifically?

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to respond. It means the world to me. ^^

Subject to change, in my personal opinion, works well to inform people that the concept isn't final.

In relation to writing out your game, pick a few key aspects or a general overview. For example, "My game focuses on Bob, a farmer from the town of Farmville. He witnessed [an event] and now he has to scour the land for a way to clear his name." See, very simple. It gives a general overview without giving away much in terms of the story; it merely gives the name of a key event. Hope that helps :)

 

[Aisling Starr]

@Aisling Starr
Everyone has to take risks in life - that's just how it is. I've invested hundreds of [currency] in music equipment and virtual instruments and guess how much of that I've made back so far by composing music for games. If your answer is "not even 10%" or something like that then you guessed correct! And if you're still iffy about it - don't see it as taking risks, see it as making an investment.

When I said "describing what exactly you need" I was talking about when you commission and artist or composer with something for your game. If you want a character, knowing how the character looks and what they are like personality-wise is a great help for an artist. Same with, say, music for an area in your game. Knowing what it looks like and what purpose it has in your story and what background and lore plays in is a great help for a composer all the same.
If you're looking for someone to explain things to you, you should specify that and make a post about it, asking for help. When it comes to teaching people many "experts" might not even charge you any money.

Speaking of money, not having any is no excuse to demand artist work for you for free. Everyone in this business has a hard time and valuing an artist's work is incredibly important - so important even that I can't stress it enough. I'm not criticising you, I'm just saying don't expect people to work for free just because you have no money. And definitely don't demand free work, that's rude. :)

@MinisterJay
About that royalties thing: no. If you want work done by an artist, ALWAYS pay them upfront. Don't expect them to take the risk and possibly get nothing if the game doesn't sell well, if it's gonna be sold or even finished at all. Many artists, including me, won't work on royalty basis just because it is essentially the same as working for free. Now, I understand that if that game sells like, say, Undertale a certain percentage of royalties would be nice. But not every game will sell well. Not every game will be finished. And not every artist will take the risk of a game not being finished. Artists in this business need the money - don't make them wait for it. To me, it's a matter of respecting an artist's work. Wait until you have the money and pay them.

I wasn't exactly demanding...But I understand what you meant.

So if I want art, I'll either have to do it myself or stick to what I have, since I don't have any way to pay them.


I understand. Thanks for replying.
[doublepost=1476056520,1476056447][/doublepost]

Subject to change, in my personal opinion, works well to inform people that the concept isn't final.

In relation to writing out your game, pick a few key aspects or a general overview. For example, "My game focuses on Bob, a farmer from the town of Farmville. He witnessed [an event] and now he has to scour the land for a way to clear his name." See, very simple. It gives a general overview without giving away much in terms of the story; it merely gives the name of a key event. Hope that helps :)

Thank you very much!

 

[Dad3353]

I'm mainly looking up tutorials on how to fix these things....

Let's do this aspect, then, one step at a time. Explain to me just what you want to do (I remember the 'Book' thread...), and we'll talk it through. Give me one concrete example of a triggered Event that is causing you problems, or an Item that you need to have obtained, or whatever. Just one, and we'll get it sorted. In doing so, it will probably help you with another, so if we take 'em one at a time, we'll see how we can advance. How does that strike you..?

 

[Aisling Starr]

Let's do this aspect, then, one step at a time. Explain to me just what you want to do (I remember the 'Book' thread...), and we'll talk it through. Give me one concrete example of a triggered Event that is causing you problems, or an Item that you need to have obtained, or whatever. Just one, and we'll get it sorted. In doing so, it will probably help you with another, so if we take 'em one at a time, we'll see how we can advance. How does that strike you..?

Sounds good.

Can we start out with the book thing again? This time, we'll go step by step on how it's suppose to be done.

 

[Dad3353]

Sounds good.

Can we start out with the book thing again? This time, we'll go step by step on how it's suppose to be done.

PM sent...