Choice-Oriented RPG Creation

[BlacksmithMV]

Hello, my new friends, and thank you for choosing to take a look at this. Within this thread I wish to discuss matters of an RPG which I intend to make on MV. But first I need some feedback to ensure that it would be a desired RPG. To cut to the chase, skip the History section.

History:
Alright, so to let you know, it has always been my desire to make an RP where the character's choices affect the whole game world. Everything from conversations with NPCs to interactions with influential figures and performing quests will have some kind of lasting effect in a freeform-style play. I had always disliked making NPCs that said a single line and that being it, and so I had easily developed a system where a random number is rolled and they say a given thing based on that number. Pretty basic.

Later I had developed an enhanced system that allows the player to have a full-fledged conversation with an NPC, composing of randomized text from both parties composing of realistic properties like first introducing oneself and then asking about things. The downside to this is that it is a whole lot of writing work to be done. A single NPC could probably take hours to fully program.

The Chase:
So what I had in mind would be to, overall, make a system based rather on Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas. Anyone who had ever played that game would know what I'm talking about. It's a pretty good system where normal, faceless NPCs probably say a few lines without any real interaction, and the more important NPCs are the ones you can have conversations with. It'd be at least a good step up from the basic system and a step below an enhanced system where you can do literally anything you want.

Best of all, consequences! Consequences, consequences, consequences. That's what this is about. What I want to make is a game where your choices have consequences, good or bad. Based on the aforementioned system like Fallout 3-4, do you think that this would make a good RPG? I badly want to make something original and desirable- something that many folks would want to play, rather than just another story. Why not make a game where the player can make their own story?

Your thoughts?

 

[HotfireLegend]

New Vegas is enjoying a resurgence in popularity - and rightly so! However, just because the game devs were (astonishingly) able to make the game in 18 months doesn't mean we'll find it easy to do so. Something's gotta give. A lot of the dev time will be spent creating things that players will never even see. I don't know how big the NV credits are, but from what I remember, it's quite similar to the size of The Witcher 2's credits. Basically, about a few hundred to a thousand people if not more.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_developers

Considering that, it will be impossible to make something on the scale of New Vegas. However, doing something like three towns and a main quest with a few sidequests is totally doable. Consequences are great - but - Ring-a-ding-ding - they at the very least double dev time, depending how substantial you want them to be. It's a sin to tell a lie though, as on the plus side, if you don't have voice-acting or the bugs that 3D can bring due to working with a 2D engine, you'll be able to make a game like this faster than in 18 months, especially if it isn't just you doing all of the work. Ain't that just a kick in the head?

Eureka! A reasonable compromise would be to focus on a small area of land, a few NPCs and have those few NPCs be reused frequently with different dialogues depending on your choices. It's a valuable lesson when considering the scope of what you're considering.

 

[BlacksmithMV]

New Vegas is enjoying a resurgence in popularity - and rightly so! However, just because the game devs were (astonishingly) able to make the game in 18 months doesn't mean we'll find it easy to do so. Something's gotta give. A lot of the dev time will be spent creating things that players will never even see. I don't know how big the NV credits are, but from what I remember, it's quite similar to the size of The Witcher 2's credits. Basically, about a few hundred to a thousand people if not more.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_developers

Considering that, it will be impossible to make something on the scale of New Vegas. However, doing something like three towns and a main quest with a few sidequests is totally doable. Consequences are great - but - Ring-a-ding-ding - they at the very least double dev time, depending how substantial you want them to be. It's a sin to tell a lie though, as on the plus side, if you don't have voice-acting or the bugs that 3D can bring due to working with a 2D engine, you'll be able to make a game like this faster than in 18 months, especially if it isn't just you doing all of the work. Ain't that just a kick in the head?

Eureka! A reasonable compromise would be to focus on a small area of land, a few NPCs and have those few NPCs be reused frequently with different dialogues depending on your choices. It's a valuable lesson when considering the scope of what you're considering.

Hmm, thanks... Indeed, your suggestion would likely be a good place to start since I am, after all, a one-man crew. Sooo yeah, I could do this thing on a small scale to start out with. Then probably update, and update, and update, and build onto it. I do want as many features and complexity as possible without overloading myself or overstepping MV's boundaries. So perhaps if I took this piecemeal and arranged a list of tasks by order of tiers, and allowed flexibility in my programming to allow it to be expanded... Yeah, that could work.

 

[MinisterJay]

First thing to address is if this will be desired. One thing I desire to bring to this site is a different category called gamers. It is nice hearing the opinions of other game devs, but the true market is the gamers.

I am interested in what your thread title directs to, choice oriented. I like that concept. The player can learn from ill choices, or even play it many different ways. How choice oriented is your game going to be.

 

[BlacksmithMV]

First thing to address is if this will be desired. One thing I desire to bring to this site is a different category called gamers. It is nice hearing the opinions of other game devs, but the true market is the gamers.

I am interested in what your thread title directs to, choice oriented. I like that concept. The player can learn from ill choices, or even play it many different ways. How choice oriented is your game going to be.

Well, at the present time I'm not completely certain since I haven't begun development yet- only a bit of tinkering on VX Ace before I chose to immigrate to MV. How choice-oriented, though? Well, I'll need to consider that. The goal, at least, is to keep from making the player feel pigeon-holed into a set storyline or doing the same things. Enough to make it have some replay value.

 

[MinisterJay]

Well, at the present time I'm not completely certain since I haven't begun development yet- only a bit of tinkering on VX Ace before I chose to immigrate to MV. How choice-oriented, though? Well, I'll need to consider that. The goal, at least, is to keep from making the player feel pigeon-holed into a set storyline or doing the same things. Enough to make it have some replay value.

That is good. I do from time to time use choice-oriented options attempt to shape a player to do what is best for the goals and quests of the game, but I will not stop them from making undesirable choices. They character may die as a result, of contiinually doing it, but I am not going to stop them...

 

[Neotheny]

If the end goal is memorable NPCs, i would go in the opposite direction. have all the NPCs interact with each other and do stuff based on the players progression instead of player choices. it's not realistic that people wait for someone to tell them what to do.

trails in the sky would be a prime example for this. the game with the most memorable NPCs i have ever played.

 

[BlacksmithMV]

Well, yes, I should think that consequences for your actions that take place on a wide scale and interaction between NPCs and with the world at large would be an awesome development. Yet in both there are some serious issues which might just be a mammoth task to undertake without some good scripts. I am, in fact, intent on having NPCs interact with the world and move from map to map, but so far I've struggled with it to no avail. Things that occur without the player's intervention, at that, would be even more complicated to work out. There's a ton of background information that may not be within MV's bounds. Say, two characters fight each-other in the wilderness, far from any influence of the player. Who would win? How would the winner win? There might be a bunch of computations involved which are beyond me. Not just with battle, but with things like the NPCs and their interaction with each-other and the world around them. I'd have to come up with some kind of system that randomizes events. Hmm... random might be my only shot at this. It'd be tricky getting each NPC their own dynamically changing inventory, too.

But I'd best simmer things down now. Development is underway, and right now I need a means of NPCs living and moving around. I have a time system, at least, and I can likely program a schedule for them to follow so that they are in specific places at specific times of the day. But when it comes to what comes out of those activities, I'm a bit lost. What I really want is for NPCs to be moving around in the background, even when the player's not there. I was hoping to do it all with one event rather than a ton of them each doing a different thing, but I may not have a choice but to resort to that and connect those instances with a point in time.

EDIT: Furthermore, what would I do when the player IS present and the NPC is doing their own thing? With my rudimentary timing system implemented, it would mean that the NPC would just pop from one place to the next. I'd have to find some way of getting them moving from place to place... In time, whether the player is there or not.

 

[Neotheny]

maybe you should check living town tutorial series on the official blog. here is the introduction to the tutorials: http://blog.rpgmakerweb.com/tutorials/the-living-town-intro/

it's about town, in which it's occupants do their own thing regardless of players action. in short, rpgmaker skyrim.

 

[BlacksmithMV]

maybe you should check living town tutorial series on the official blog. here is the introduction to the tutorials: http://blog.rpgmakerweb.com/tutorials/the-living-town-intro/

it's about town, in which it's occupants do their own thing regardless of players action. in short, rpgmaker skyrim.

It's indeed helpful, brilliant even, but all I can see is the intro itself. Isn't there anything more? I've already thought out much of what is mentioned in here, but what I really need are the mechanics used to bring it about.

EDIT: Nevermind; I found something, I think.

 

[Neotheny]

http://blog.rpgmakerweb.com/category/tutorials/

here are all the entries. bottom of the page is intro.

 

[BlacksmithMV]

Alright; thanks again. Although now I have another problem. Regrettably this tutorial appears to be for VX or Ace. Of course that problem can be remedied with some conversion of style from VX to MV, but this guy suggests some almost vital scripts- and those can't be converted. I'll need to look up some scripts for pathfinding and Dynamic time for MV. If you know any very good ones, link them to me. I need them to be specific to what this guy concocts here.

 

[polar_fawkes]

hey man.. soooooo a little context as to the game i'm working on: it's an open-world rpg, very similar to what you're planning on doing. day/night, people with schedules. i created my settlement-building system over years of trying to rip off animal crossing, but i think i've actually improved upon FO4's settlement system. so, i'm doing exactly what you are saying you intend to do.

here's the thing. there is no shortcut to excellence in any field. i've been designing games for 20 years, and i'm incorporating design decisions over those 20 years. what is absolutely critical in a game with so many complex systems(as yours and mine have) is that you need to plan out EVERY step, EVERY variable, in a GDD before starting anything. your pre-production period should answer all questions. your production period should be you typing and clicking for months just getting the ideas into the game (and testing to make sure its fun, all that horseshit).

as some context into the work that goes behind a 'choice based' game, here is an image of 2000's Deus Ex's script(not the GDD, just the branching dialogue):
http://www.nanoaugur.net/dx3/Script_02.JPG
(throws warning via firefox but i've confirmed its just a jpg)

someone above me said 'that is impossible'. it's not, but i'm fairly certain i'm the only person who's failed to excecute the rpg maker morrowind enough hundreds of times to know exactly what to do correctly. that's why i'm about to release a FCU product that will make me disgustingly rich. there's no shortcut. the most important thing to keep in mind, and this is coming from Todd Howard here, is "We can do anything, we just can't do everything."

Actually, just watch this hour long talk where the creator of the games you're mentioning answers your questions lmao!

[doublepost=1454535058,1454534952][/doublepost]addendum: if you aren't familiar with Object-Oriented Programming, you are fucked. absolutely required to design the systems, regardless of the code/engine it's written in. extra hard is taking OOP and doing it MANUALLY via the horseshit variable system that comes with RPGM. you have to keep track of these objects and arrays mentally, and remember which variables are children of which objects.

best of luck dude, i hope to see you competing with me soon :)

 

[BlacksmithMV]

hey man.. soooooo a little context as to the game i'm working on: it's an open-world rpg, very similar to what you're planning on doing. day/night, people with schedules. i created my settlement-building system over years of trying to rip off animal crossing, but i think i've actually improved upon FO4's settlement system. so, i'm doing exactly what you are saying you intend to do.

here's the thing. there is no shortcut to excellence in any field. i've been designing games for 20 years, and i'm incorporating design decisions over those 20 years. what is absolutely critical in a game with so many complex systems(as yours and mine have) is that you need to plan out EVERY step, EVERY variable, in a GDD before starting anything. your pre-production period should answer all questions. your production period should be you typing and clicking for months just getting the ideas into the game (and testing to make sure its fun, all that horseshit).

as some context into the work that goes behind a 'choice based' game, here is an image of 2000's Deus Ex's script(not the GDD, just the branching dialogue):
http://www.nanoaugur.net/dx3/Script_02.JPG
(throws warning via firefox but i've confirmed its just a jpg)

someone above me said 'that is impossible'. it's not, but i'm fairly certain i'm the only person who's failed to excecute the rpg maker morrowind enough hundreds of times to know exactly what to do correctly. that's why i'm about to release a FCU product that will make me disgustingly rich. there's no shortcut. the most important thing to keep in mind, and this is coming from Todd Howard here, is "We can do anything, we just can't do everything."

Actually, just watch this hour long talk where the creator of the games you're mentioning answers your questions lmao!

[doublepost=1454535058,1454534952][/doublepost]addendum: if you aren't familiar with Object-Oriented Programming, you are fucked. absolutely required to design the systems, regardless of the code/engine it's written in. extra hard is taking OOP and doing it MANUALLY via the horseshit variable system that comes with RPGM. you have to keep track of these objects and arrays mentally, and remember which variables are children of which objects.

best of luck dude, i hope to see you competing with me soon :)

Oh my... Maybe I bit off more than I can chew, but I guess I can still try. I'm not a programmer; all I know is how to tinker with scripts on occasion and that's about it. I'm not sure what this Object-oriented thing is, so... That's discouraging. I'll try, though, and put that other guy's suggestion to use and have a look at the Living Town thing. Hopefully I can get a breakthrough. If not, well... I'll just have to simplify.

 

[polar_fawkes]

you got it, man! make a project that's just outside ur comfort zone, but super practical! i know i can spend at least a year developing my game. i quit a job i was up for a promotion at to work harder on it. this is my next step. yours is much much easier! you should be encouraged!

as far as actionable advice goes, i'd say definitely start doing GDDs now. sounds like you want to be designing games rather than developing them. you're lucky! when i started a) game design wasn't a known career path, and b) the first book on 'how to make a game' had "Soldering Your First Joystick Controller" as Chapter I lmao. just have fun and you'll accidentally get so good you'll be able to charge for it :D just have fun. (work hard too though).
[doublepost=1454537569,1454537474][/doublepost]example GDD from one of the forefathers of what we do: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx1Y2xhZXhnYW1ld3JpdGluZ3xneDo1YmNmODUxNGRhZGI2NGQz

buy purchasing RPGM you get to select all the shit about memory management and graphics engines and hit the delete key :D you brilliant bastard, you!
[doublepost=1454537960][/doublepost]within your scope, a game i ditched: your father(king) is killed. there is 4 towns and one castle. you have 3 days to find who killed ur father before your inauguration. start w having it be the same guy every time. next version: have the assassin change each time.

if you don't find who did it, you get assassinated at your inauguration.
[doublepost=1454538045][/doublepost]if you're running your time engine as parallel common: set 'wait' to 500 for 12-minute day/night cycles. if that makes no sense stick to the time engine you've got!

 

[BlacksmithMV]

Yeah, I've got myself a time engine that's fairly good, and I think I know where you're coming from. I'll just take this step by step, organize my thinking and design this steadily. For example, my current objective is to, at least on a town-based scale, make events be running their stuff regardless of whether the player is on the map or not. So far I've come up with nothing, except for this Living Towns idea which I intend to try; basically fusing the interiors and exteriors together. Too bad it may not function on a global scale, but it's better than nothing. Something of that scale would probably just cause a ton of lag.

EDIT: Also, can I get a writable form of that GDD template? I'd like to fill that out.

 

[polar_fawkes]

spoiler alert: parallel processes, u have to do it from scratch. bethesda runs metaphors of their systems for unloaded areas as well.

the gdd is a *.doc! click the 'download' button, top centre. then upload it to google docs because microsoft word is horrible lmao

honestly, i can tell you're more serious than 90% of the people here. you'll do fine ;)

 

[HotfireLegend]

In making my game, I actually am not putting in variable time. In most games with day/night cycles, it usually affects very little apart from NPC movement routes and especially the player is totally unaffected. Usually more trouble than it is worth. I will however, be implementing OOP via common events (a weird way to do it, I know! But in this instance I don't actually need more than what the engine and a lot of plugins already provide.) I do web dev as a job BTW so I know some coding, just not the JS syntax. LMK if you need any help logic wise.

I'm still wondering when people will "see" what I did in my first reply to this topic without me having to tell them...

 

[BlacksmithMV]

spoiler alert: parallel processes, u have to do it from scratch. bethesda runs metaphors of their systems for unloaded areas as well.

the gdd is a *.doc! click the 'download' button, top centre. then upload it to google docs because microsoft word is horrible lmao

honestly, i can tell you're more serious than 90% of the people here. you'll do fine ;)

Fascinating... metaphors and.. I think I'm getting something there. I think... A parallel process, linked to a common event or... hmm... I'll have to research it and tinker away. Thanks for that, though! This sort of thing has been my dream game, although I think I went and digressed from the choice system. The living town thing is a side-thing I've always wanted to do. To walk in and out of a house at varying times and watch the NPC up to their daily lives... It would really make the game come alive! Especially if you get to watch them switch tasks.

Also, Hotfire, I very much got your references! :D I just didn't mention it; my apologies, ahah. ^^;

I think I have all the info I need- at least, for now. All that's left to know is to take what I've learned and start working at it.

 

[polar_fawkes]

lmao @HotfireLegend you're an ass
[doublepost=1454539772,1454539657][/doublepost]agreed @HotfireLegend re realtime day/night cycles! i in particular am drawin a lot of inspiration from majora's mask regarding time though, so there's mechanics behind it (and camping/sleeping, as a result, becomes important in that case). in general though if the feature doesn't offer unique gameplay opportunities for your client, fuckit. do something they'll have fun w instead ;)
[doublepost=1454539914][/doublepost]

Fascinating... metaphors and.. I think I'm getting something there. I think... A parallel process, linked to a common event or... hmm... I'll have to research it and tinker away. Thanks for that, though! This sort of thing has been my dream game, although I think I went and digressed from the choice system. The living town thing is a side-thing I've always wanted to do. To walk in and out of a house at varying times and watch the NPC up to their daily lives... It would really make the game come alive! Especially if you get to watch them switch tasks.

Also, Hotfire, I very much got your references! :D I just didn't mention it; my apologies, ahah. ^^;

I think I have all the info I need- at least, for now. All that's left to know is to take what I've learned and start working at it.

last piece of advice: you can turn a 'IntroOver' switch on after the intro. then have a common event 'parallel' with condition 'IntroOver' true. this will then run that common event no matter what map you're on. you will then run into a million more little problems needing solutions, but that's how you build a base 'game loop'. make sure it waits or your computer will commit seppuku